BigJ,
What do you think the outcome will be? you seem to be very knowledge, I would like to know your opinion and everybody else opinions are on what they think will happen if a complaint if filed.
Honestly you are 50/50 with it leaning towards not a whole heck of allot. I think allot depends on you and your reasons for filing the complaint.
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I'd ask you first what are your expectations and are they realistic?
On one hand it is rather unrealistic to think you or I can change a direction when it has the momentum we claim that PFHA has right now. On the other, I truly believe that where one stands, another will join and then another and then another and together we can stop this. If I didn't, I wouldn't invest any time in this. I sure would not have posted my thoughts on such matters if I didn't think "someone", "somebody" didn't agree.
See, I still have hope, I still believe not so much in PFHA but in what PFHA is made up of. I still believe there are more than just me or you out there whether it be PFHA or ATTA or IPHF or some fly-by-night organization. I believe that "someone" has to make a stand at some time and for me, today is that day, just as it was yesterday and will be tomorrow.
I see the same folks at Mundials, the same at an IPHF show, the same at a PPR show; and so, I don't see how anyone can tell themselves what happens in one pool doesn't ripple into another. Those judges may judge a Mundial one day or an IPHF show one day or another PFHA show. That exhibitor may one day think he was real swift and try it again with other judges.
Some judges are easily intimidated because they are relatively new to the breed and judging. Maybe one dominated the others and maybe what you do will make a difference to those judges who feel they, too, are isolated and without support. We need judges who are honest and true at all times not the ones that misbehave at one org show and then act all proper at a different org. Or act different at different PFHA shows depending on who is judging with them, who is riding and who is watching. If they need better training, better manuals, then this is proof to support that argument. If we continue to leave it as it were, then we are part of the problem too.
It might not be worth it to you, but the next time you see this at another paso show, I hope you think of it as another opportunity to help and not as another reason to turn away (who would blame you?). It doesn't have to be a complaint, but I do think it takes more than just talking about it.
The way I see it what do I have to lose? My membership? I can't let my mares have fun with a PF stallion anymore? No one will talk to me? What is it that I will lose by doing something? Nothing that matters to me that's for sure. My home is safe. My job is safe. My man stands by my side. My horses will still greet me. My friends, well, my friends know me to be true so no worries. And so what if it costs some change in my pocket? An attorney, big whoopy deal.
Then I ask myself what do I lose if I don't?
Me and possibly
my breed.
Worse I'll lose you and Felix and Kerry and Cindy and Lori and others that I think are meant to be with these horses. I'll lose the people that belong in this breed. I've seen good, great people leave. I think of Pro in Puerto Rico and Cristy and Britz and others I've met over the years. When I think of the love lost, ripped away from my breed, I get so totally pissed I don't care about winning. I care about standing up for making a difference. I care enough to say it out loud, to do something, to try.
I'm not saying to feel as I feel or do what I would do. I would file a complaint. My goal would be long term solution not short-term satisfaction. It's not good enough to have the judges or that exhibitor temporarily suspended. What I would be aiming for is a continual bombardment of evidence to prove that the current method of certifying judges isn't working and then I would provide some recommendations for consideration. Not just for PFHA but as a model to build on for the future of our breed.
_________________ Be the change you want to see in the world. Gandhi
OK you just Beleive in what you want. You must like big goverment also. And this is the main reason the Paso breed has not made forward progress and no marketing to boot. Big J, You just ramble and talk circles. I will have to attend a few PFHA shows rather I like it or not. Our farm houses Quality horses all of them FINO and Trote Y Galope. As I pour money in these projects I would like fair judging and a fair shake. I have witnessed over the past few years the Bull that has been dished to Paso owners because the judge knows or is freinds with the riders. Do you think for one moment when Rider Ratliff at the time was president would recieve poor judging? I seen many well qualifying horse that should have receive placement; get HM and the winners of the class had horses that could not meet the requirements of the class win, and the riders were Judges or involve at high levels of PFHA. SO dont feed me your crap! Many people are now discouraged to show because of these actions. PFHA is now like backyard, I'm your buddy, I will look the other way when you make mistakes and I will pat you on the back win a ribbon.
_________________ you can lead a horse to the water but you cant make em drink, but the smart ones do!
I missed you! glad you are back.
I appreciate all you do, and I'm sure a lot of us do. It's difficult to change a whole organization to change their way of thinking/doing. Just like telling a smoker(like me ) to quit smoking, it will be better for me..., or an alcoholic to quit drinking... PFHA has had the taste of money, for a long time now, it'll be hard to quit, and become honest, transparent, and most of all, to put the BREED's future FIRST!
Not sure if all that came out allright, but I think you catch my drift .
Anyway, happy you're back! PM me if you think I can help you with Oct. meeting stuff....
Thanks Marleen. I never really left. I just needed a break.
I'll let you know. Maybe I'm asking too much to expect a corporation to follow its own rules. Why make 'em?
Boy that one smart PasoTres! Not sure if you posted in the right thread. I think you might be referring to my bald sarcastic remark about fino horses being man-made and this being a shit breed.
No, I have seen Robin Ratliff be given favors before she was president by other judges. Nothing like watching a judge and rider pass pleasantries in the middle of a judged class and watching the horse place without having to fulfill the requirements of the class. Makes me proud to be a part of it. Robin rode the only horse that was not required to back in a class and then be placed.
_________________ Be the change you want to see in the world. Gandhi
.Why make rules???
So it'll look like it's all ligit, so they can break em without members realizing it, and get away with it all .
At least some folks are beginning to 'see through it'.
Different matter: I wish I could email you a pic of Sassie, my new 'hellion' kitten. She is something else! Still working with ATT on mailing pics again. Don't know what went wrong, but I can not send pics
Well, Nikki's mommy has her hands full...seems Dad picked up a little stray kitty on the way home a couple of nights ago. He's pretty pitiful, so I'll post some pics of him, once he looks a little more like a cat. Nikki doesn't know what to do about it all...she's been Princess of the Palace for quite some time now.
_________________ They are not here for us...we are here for them.
Thanks Marleen. I never really left. I just needed a break.
I'll let you know. Maybe I'm asking too much to expect a corporation to follow its own rules. Why make 'em?
Boy that one smart PasoTres! Not sure if you posted in the right thread. I think you might be referring to my bald sarcastic remark about fino horses being man-made and this being a shit breed.
No, I have seen Robin Ratliff be given favors before she was president by other judges. Nothing like watching a judge and rider pass pleasantries in the middle of a judged class and watching the horse place without having to fulfill the requirements of the class. Makes me proud to be a part of it. Robin rode the only horse that was not required to back in a class and then be placed.
Robin Ratliff is just one exemple and she was given favors several times when she was President. I don't beleive there is anyhting that can be done other than having the judges explain the placement just like IPHF did last weekend at the show in Miami.
Can you please tell me when is the next meeting in Ocala? We never seem to know on time, we always find out afterwords.
SRPFHA? and PFHA?? meetings.
Thank you.
_________________ Jacky McDaniel
Wildflower Paso Fino &
Trote Y Galope
Home of BOLERO de Sierra Morena
Ocala FL.
I'd like to see a more impartial Judges and Stewards Committee or have an entirely independent, separate panel of members who are not judges or stewards act as auditors at shows. We have plenty of experts who know the rules and the breed that can be impartial about how a show is conducted. It is absolutely ridiculous to have only show management "evaluate" a judge. How blantant can that be when most of the show management is showing?
For the longest I thought that was the steward's job. But that seems to have been turned into nothing but a person that tattletellers go to and nothing more. Seems the steward is absolutely not interested in the show's activities within or outside the arena except to walk around looking bored. I mean, if a steward was watching the judging procedure, wouldn't he/she be one of the first to bring it to show management's attention and then file a complaint for inappropriate behavior by a judge? Couldn't the steward give out a warning card or something and if that exhibitor or judge got "x" many over time be suspended?
I do like the pre-pista inspection Fedequinas has. PFHA's is a joke. The explanations I've heard at some shows are so generalized, so politically correct, they don't substantiate a placement or a judge's behavior. Here are some examples:
Mundial 2005 the reserve fino mare champion had one of the worst figure 8 demonstrations I have ever seen. I mean the worst of the worst. She hopped, skipped, leaned in with her shoulders to the point I'd thought she'd fall. To keep her balance her head jutted to the outside of the circle, she crossed over in the rear end and fell out of gait. She got reserve because she was an obvious Colombian favorite. I can't recall the explanation as to why such a bad performance was rewarded.
Mundial 2007 the fino stallion champion was sore footed and going lame. It became obvious during the figure 8 and serpentine tests. He appeared sound going straight and on the first couple times on the sounding board. As the class was worked, he got more and more sore and the last time on the sounding board you could hear and see it. The judges protected the horse by allowing him to "rest" as the obvious winner and continued working the rest of the class. The justification when explained was the horse was obviously the best in the class and required no further testing. He won because he was the obvious favorite.
Mundial 2001 the fino filly champion and ultimately the overall mare champion rarely gaited and crab-walked the entire time in the class. If she ever tracked all four legs on two lines I never saw it. Her head was atrocious and her rear end the worst I ever seen. Again, the worst of the worst. She won because she was the obvious favorite.
The explanations for why these horses won were immaterial since the mob was exhubriated. These horses are great horses, champions no doubt, but not on that day. Recall Angela Ochoa's backlash for down grading a mob favorite because of his lackluster performance that day? Did anyone really listen to the explanation why? Nope, when the favorite doesn't get the win, the mob shouts over the explanation.
Each of these champions failed significant tests to prove they had the characteristics of the paso fino. One was lame, the others were so crooked and out of balance they didn't gait; and yet they won and everyone was happy. So happy, that now, the pressure is on the keep judges "honest" by making them explain themselves and this system is touted as "ideal". But when a judge is honest and does explain herself, if it doesn't satisfy everyone's opinion of who is the "best" horse (no matter what), then she is blasted, suspeneded, and investigated.
_________________ Be the change you want to see in the world. Gandhi
BigJ,
You are so right about everything you wrote. It is the steward's job to look for those things, I beleive often they look the other way. It is so much bill shit lately, I just don't want to go to the shows.
At the last SRPFHA my four year old fino colt was excused and we did not know why, a week later we found out that he was excused because they claim he was too slow and this is the same colt that took 5th place at the National last year and that should say something, that was the same weekend that someone was granted another chance on the board by these judges.
Anyway, the year is over for us as far as showing unless IPHF puts on another show, next year we will not participate in any SRPFHA shows unless big changes are made!!
Please let us know when the next meetings are and we will be there unless they want to keep it a big secret and don't want any members present.
_________________ Jacky McDaniel
Wildflower Paso Fino &
Trote Y Galope
Home of BOLERO de Sierra Morena
Ocala FL.
As far as the Judging system within PFHA, it seems to be working just fine for a select group of people and they don't seem inclined to change it...
As far as vast changes within PFHA: In order for ANY REAL CHANGE to take place within PFHA, the Leaders would have to vote themselves out of Office. What are the odds of that?
What I just can not wrap my mind around is WHY PFHA members complain about how corrupt the Judging and Judging System is, do nothing about it (ie. file complaints or contact the Steward, etc), and THEN continue to Show their horses at PFHA sanctioned Shows. Where is the personal integrity? IF it is so bad, why endorse it by remaining a Member? The Leaders have demonstrated time and again they will not listen to the Membership, so vote with your wallet. Stop giving them any money. The way I see it, PFHA needs me more than I need them. That's a great feeling!
Mundial 2005 the reserve fino mare champion had one of the worst figure 8 demonstrations I have ever seen. I mean the worst of the worst. She hopped, skipped, leaned in with her shoulders to the point I'd thought she'd fall. To keep her balance her head jutted to the outside of the circle, she crossed over in the rear end and fell out of gait. She got reserve because she was an obvious Colombian favorite. I can't recall the explanation as to why such a bad performance was rewarded. (Couldn't have bee that bad, I can't even remember who won reserve???. All I can say for sure is the fight ruined the overall atmoshpere at that Mundial - thanks to a certain group of thugs.) I think a lot NOT ALL of the people there were so rude and materiaistic. SORRY.. Also this show was in Puerto Rico not Colombia, so she certainly wasn't placed because she was the "Colombian favorite" as you say.
Mundial 2007 the fino stallion champion was sore footed and going lame. It became obvious during the figure 8 and serpentine tests. He appeared sound going straight and on the first couple times on the sounding board. As the class was worked, he got more and more sore and the last time on the sounding board you could hear and see it. The judges protected the horse by allowing him to "rest" as the obvious winner and continued working the rest of the class. The justification when explained was the horse was obviously the best in the class and required no further testing. He won because he was the obvious favorite.
(No Tormento won because he was the best in the ring on that day. I don't think they really rested this horse. It was a good work out. He may have shown a slight soreness, (wouldn't you with a huge man riding on your back for so long! but he was not lame.)
Mundial 2001 the fino filly champion and ultimately the overall mare champion rarely gaited and crab-walked the entire time in the class. If she ever tracked all four legs on two lines I never saw it. Her head was atrocious and her rear end the worst I ever seen. Again, the worst of the worst. She won because she was the obvious favorite. ???
The explanations for why these horses won were immaterial since the mob was exhubriated. These horses are great horses, champions no doubt, but not on that day. Recall Angela Ochoa's backlash for down grading a mob favorite because of his lackluster performance that day? Did anyone really listen to the explanation why? Nope, when the favorite doesn't get the win, the mob shouts over the explanation. Don't agree with this paragraph at all. Most of the time people DO LISTEN TO THE EXPLANATIONS! Which show was Angela boohed at anyway?
Each of these champions failed significant tests to prove they had the characteristics of the paso fino. One was lame, the others were so crooked and out of balance they didn't gait; and yet they won and everyone was happy. So happy, that now, the pressure is on the keep judges "honest" by making them explain themselves and this system is touted as "ideal". But when a judge is honest and does explain herself, if it doesn't satisfy everyone's opinion of who is the "best" horse (no matter what), then she is blasted, suspeneded, and investigated.
You have to admit OVERALL the judging is much more consistent, reliable and based on the point system vs. an interpretation/opinion of what they think. And, each horse is required to do a work off. This eliminates a lot of horses from a class that lose engery, are not in gait, blow up, etc. Also you failed to mentoin the 2003 Mundial - Medellin, Colombia. It was the best! Best horses, judges and the crowd. The crowd was huge, respectful and very very knowledgeable!
TOTALLY AGREE ABOUT STEWARDS, LAST TIME I ASKED A QUESTION I NEVER GOT AN ANSWER AND WAS LOOKED AT LIKE I WAS A BOTHER
Before my first post, I contacted two professional parliamentarian organizations. I have been in contact with three parliamentarians about this specific issues and a few others I have had with PFHA. I am trying to finalize my discussions with them ASAP.
So, yes, I will be at the October meeting and I will be as prepared as I can possibly be to work through this. I ask for patience as I try to finalize and then share what I have learned.
PFHA is my association that supports my breed. As angry as I am, I am a member and as a member I will do what I can to make this work and if it cannot work, then I will make sure it will not harm the breed. I do not see ATTA or IPHF as advesaries nor as "replacements". Nor do I see PFHA as the ultimate USA representative of pasos or CONFEPASO as a world-wide voice for pasos.
What I see is a lack of structure as result of a lack of will from the members that make up these organizations. What I see is me, you, "us" not demanding more from each other. What I see is very little faith in an animal we all claim we endear in our hearts. I see very little pride that the paso IS the best and so very little effort to maintain the horse AS IT IS. I see very little respect for an animal that literally represents a history of great nations and great people. As a result, is it any wonder we no longer respect each other and behave as we do?
I believe in this horse and because I do, I WILL work towards a structure that provides procedure that allows "us" to communicate our support for our breed. My goal is to put back in the respect that will allow us to move forward again.[/quote]
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Candice, thank you for doing this. Please keep us posted. I understand what you are saying about Procedures not being followed. But, aside from this being information, does it have any "teeth"? I mean, they seem to have a "thumb their nose" attitude towards the membership...so what is there to do about it?
I also agree completely that there seems to be so little pride in the Paso Fino breed from PFHA. It's practically ignored in so many discussions. For an Organization that is supposed to be dedicated to the well being, protection, and enhancement of the Paso Fino breed, it sure seems to keep that aspect under wraps. I mean, the Paso Fino is one of the BEST breeds of horses in the World. The Association should, if anything, have a smug attitude, a proprietary attitude, but instead, there seems to be this, I don't know, almost, shame about it or something. It's weird. If I was entrusted with a rare treasure, I would do everything I could to protect it, isn't the Paso Fino a Treasure also?
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) to quit smoking, it will be better for me..., or an alcoholic to quit drinking... PFHA has had the taste of money, for a long time now, it'll be hard to quit, and become honest, transparent, and most of all, to put the BREED's future FIRST!
.
Why make 'em?
Boy that one smart PasoTres! Not sure if you posted in the right thread. I think you might be referring to my bald sarcastic remark about fino horses being man-made and this being a shit breed.
.
