| Archive for PasoVoice.Com Paso Fino, Trocha Pura, Trote Galope and Trocha Galope Horses |
| caliber |
The most important interviewDuring The Colombian Nationals, a Colombian veterinarian while being interviewed mentioned some very important points of our breed!YOU WILL NOT BE SURPRISE, but will be amazed! and all owners/trainers and breeders should be concerned! |
||||||||||||||
| caliber |
During the Colombian National Show last weekend something caught my attention. The interview is in Spanish, and i will like to encourage anyone interested in translating word by word, please feel free to do so. During the show, they interviewed one of the official veterinarian of ASDESILLA which is one of the biggest Region Association of Colombia and here is a quick summary in English! Something this particular veterinarian said, before I started recording the rest of the interview was what caught my attention. Above is the part of the interview. He said that 34% of our CRIOLLO PASO HORSES (Paso Fino modality is part of the Colombian Criollo Horse) suffered from lameness....... in Colombia Laminitis Ladistimis OSTEOCHONDROSIS And also he went on saying why such HIGH percentage!!!!!!!!! conclusion, LACK OF EDUCATION............ Here are some reasons he mentioned! Nutrition Bad Shoeing or trimming TIGHT circles during training HARD SURFACE (concrete) during training Stalling foals, not enough exercise.........at freedom But most IMPORTANLY! WE ARE STARTING TO WORK OUR BREED AT A VERY EARLY AGE! before being fully matured! (then he explained about reasons, MONEY) He also mentioned the fact! THAT IN OUR BREED WE ARE NOT BREEDING SELECTIVELY! but instead, we are breeding "TO" winners and forgetting all other important factors, and this can lead to greater consequences, like Genes!!!!!!! He mentioned that fact Davis University researched made based on 60 of our breed and found out some characteristics that are already ( by not selecting and being concerned with passed health history, faults) ....... REFLECTING THE GENES! Now! you will ask yourself why the HECK am I doing posting something of this nature on a PUBLIC FORUM! And here is my answer. I believe our breed is MAGICAL, the intelligence, power, brilliance and gait of our breed, as not been seen in any other breed, is unique. If we owners, trainers, rider, breeders and breed lovers, don't educate ourselves, we will soon have a bigger problem on our hands. So, lets start taking responsibility, lets educate ourselves, lets not allow THOSE CALL TRAINERS, abuse our breed on concrete, tight circles, and lets start sending the message that our breed isn't worth JUST A RIBBON! I will like to hear your concerns and comments................. |
||||||||||||||
| Kerry W |
Great info...I'd like to read what UC Davis found out!! This is typical behavior when it comes to animal reproduction, and unfortunate for the animals. It can totally alter the breed beyond recognition, if it's left unchecked. That's one reason I hope we never see a situation where the breed is suddenly popular (like certain dog breeds), or it'll really be messed up! | ||||||||||||||
| caliber |
I did a quick search, and couldn't find anything, but then again was a quick one.
I'm also very interested in reading U o D findings! |
||||||||||||||
| britzlove |
I've been having some thoughts about some of these issues, and you know how I feel about serious faults and lameness within these horses.
I think what it is going to require, at least here, is for someone to be more aggressive in bringing these issues forefront, in the right manner. What I mean is, in a way that is easily understood to more persons, rather than veiled in confusion. Strip all of the politics away, all the backrubbing people propping blah blah blah. If you know someone who is breeding a horse with a serious flaw that could create a seriously unsound foal, you should take it upon yourself to find a gentle way to encourage that this not be the case. If you have a friend looking to buy a horse, and you know they are thinking of purchasing one who has either, bad trim, serious faults which create unsoundess, or active lameness issues, you need to tell them to disregard the spin coming from the sellor. I have some examples in my field and maybe it's time to publicly begin to educate the public with either cleverly diguised cropped pieces of photos, or photos and videos of our own. I know I have one who can illustrate, bad feet, bad proportion, table back, and less than desireable mind, and she's out of some very well known, currently popular blood. I think it's just going to take someone (or someones), who has NOTHING to lose, and NOTHING to gain by educating those interested in this breed. I don't know how exactly to do it. |
||||||||||||||
| BigJ |
I do, just come out with it.
And here's the kicker in all of this, sometimes they produce very sound, very well proportioned, very well conformed horses. It is a matter of best educated guess in the breeding shed with the emphasis on "educated". I simply don't have the time to organize it correctly, but I've got prime examples of poor confo, good confo etc. in my brood stock. I spend allot of time researching production, stallions, bloodlines to become informed and I'm not ashamed of one of my horses--ugly and all. However, I'm not going to "spin" them for sale either. Buyers need to know so that they can care for the horse to keep it sound, train in properly to assist not hinder, and pick the right type of activities the horse can perform. If the horse is marked for brood then they need to realize what faults might be easily inherited and what may not; what may be familial and what may not. Let's quit pretending we "don't know" when we very well do. The breed numbers are too small, the ones most active even smaller, so it is impossible for a person or horse go unrecognized for very long. If we claim to be horsemen first that start acting like one--all grown up and everything. I'd be more than happy to use my entire herd for the exercise because I've yet to find anyone more critical than I am about what I have--maybe less forgiving or tolerant of faults than I am, but I doubt anyone can beat my criticisms. Oh, yeah, let's quit pretending that we MUST find faults with horses we don't like. You know, it's OK just to not like something...like I don't like strawberry ice cream. So I'm supposed to say it's the stawberries, milk, cream, what???? because presented differently I love milk and strawberries with cream. As a matter of fact stuffing my face with some wonderful Plant City fruit right now and washing it down with moo juice. Just because I don't like a horse doesn't mean I MUST have you not like the horse either so that you MUST like what I like. There are horses I don't like, will not breed to, and they are great producers, excellent representatives of the breed. It goes back to what I will or will not tolerate with what combo. There are horses I love to death and haven't bred to, probably won't. There are horses I breed to that I think there are better examples of elsewhere, but I like the product and am happy with it. We need to stop looking for perfection in the specifics. The breed IS perfect just the way it is. The breed is made up of imperfect specimens, which make the breed wholesome when looked at in total. No one horse can and will be able to carry the breed no matter how close to imperfection/perfection it may be. We have a complicated breed because we still care a great deal about the intrinsic values that makes the ride a ride. Good looks, phenotype and gait are part of not the total package. Other breeds have gone strictly to gift wrapping. We'd rather have a brown box with a prize inside that can be found if you look for it. |
||||||||||||||
| britzlove |
Here's the thing, it's hard to unring a bell.
Idiots have been able to purchase these horses. Idiots have been able to call themselves experts. In a micro shadow of the horse industry as a whole, there are far too many horses out there available. And the horses are being put into the hands of people who don't get the right kind of help, are purposely misled etc. There is NO support for anyone coming into this breed just for the joy of the breed. You and I can have a long, exhaustive discussion of these things, but the two of us are those people with nothing to lose or gain, and we like diverge, lol. If this is going to get fixed before it gets out of control, some people are going to get hurt, whether or not it is deserved. The breeders who are out there purposely buying low and selling high based on nothing but spin, they deserve a little discomfort. The breeders who for some reason decided overproduction was the answer to the slight dip in purchase price after the original boom, I'm sorry but the bubble is now burst, they whould appologize to their horses. Like Kerry mentioned, I think our horses need an AKC inspired model, in that, our horses should be like the rare dog breeds. You don't find them in shelters because breeders take them sooooo seriously that they will not allow one to end up in a shelter. IE: I go back and forth, I think I will get a shelterdog when my old guy goes, but, what I really, REALLY want is either a Borzoi, or a Scottish Deerhound. There are breed rescues for these dogs, but like the Borzoi has 3 available, one has serious home issues, and the other 2 are 10 and must stay together. So should I adopt a shelter dog because I need to be responsible because others weren't? Or should I reward the breeders of the Borzoi and the Deerhounds who've kept their standards impecibly high? Should I feel guilty even thinking about it? I submit that while I agree that shelter dogs need homes, since I have 2 dumped dogs at my house, I should be able to purchase a Borzoi or Deerhound guilt free. Now, what if for instance, I was interested in a dog I could find readily available? A golden retreiver? Should I go to the breeder who's spent her life producing quality animals? Or should I have to go to the shelter? I think I should, could do either. If I could find one at a shelter that would fit my home, I would be remiss if I avoided it. However, I should definately not, pick up the paper, and purchase the cheapest golden retreiver puppies I see. I should not be buying a dog from a breeder who's only input into the pups is keeping the parents together, and the parents came from newspaper ads themselves, from the breeder isn't sure where. As a dog lover, I am obligated, if I require, just an average golden, to see if I can reward the good breeder or the hardworking shelter, not the hobbyist. Our breed needs to realize this, there are too many average horses out there, here. There are DEFINATELY too many babies PERIOD. We need some people to step up, get ahold of these horses, get them working, and get them into the hands of people who love RIDING them. We need to never, ever, sell a horse to a person based on the income they will recieve when it reproduces. We need to be realistic and realize that the other rare breeds that are still selling horses in high $ price ranges market to RIDERS. Somehow, some way, we need a support group for those interested in buying the breed newly, to learn about these horses, experience these horses, and recieve support for learning with their horses once they are owners. Do you know that I still can't find a place to take lessons? almost 5 years in the breed, the only person in the area I know of very long in the breed, I can't even talk to him, because I speak little Spanish, and everytime I've gone to the farm to inquire, there's been pressure to purchase a horse and no information about lessons. Now, I really, REALLY want to go learn from Diego Bravo, but I'm just too poor. I can ride, I ride well, I've given lessons myself, I am well educated equiestrian in other disciplines. But, I've always taken lessons. Hey, I have a bunch of nice animals that would make an INCREDIBLE string of lesson horses. I could be a supportive person who could help more of these horses meet the right kind of people. I won't do it though, until I can learn more from the saddle. And I'm not going to buy any pasos when I have 5 that were shitcanned. ugh, I'm rambling, but, the point is, there needs to be a way to deal with the fact that there are just too many average horses out there, too many shysters out there claiming to have invested far more than they are trying to get people hand them. And, sadly, there are too many really, really, really, really, (  ) good people out there in this breed, who are barely hanging on. And they need somebody to bring the people to them.
So, in reference to the unsoundness, I am 100% willing to post mine, and just as soon as I can start getting them shed out, well talk about them as critically as we can. We won't use spin terms, like "naturally fino" (whatever that is) or quick footed. We won't call them largo built or bred, or show horse, or Resorte Hot. What I don't have a great example of is long pasterns, something we really do need to address. There are other traits, that are so bad, it's really a thing with me, but there are some, that in my opinion, you are participating in a criminal act if you purposely reproduce them. For these things, I think I shall draw them, and this way, no one gets the feelings hurt. |
||||||||||||||
| BigJ |
I have to dissect this because I think everything you've said is important and deserves a response (not necessarily mine but hey it may be all you get)
First of all I agree idiots buy horses. Idiots also buy ATVs and think they are in an all terrain motorbike race and kill themselves too. Too bad. The shame is unlike the ATV, the horse is a living being so we have a double whammy stupidity thing going on. Unlike the ATV salesman who doesn't care if the buyer is an idiot or not, don't you think it is the responsibility of a horse seller to care? As a person who claims to "care" about horses don't you think this extends to who we sell what we "care" about to? Once again this goes back to our unfinished discussion about economics and marketing another living being. http://pasovoice.com/about368.html I am not going to dummy down horses I want to sell because I think my market is full of idiot buyers. I'd rather breed more slowly with less numbers and wait for non-idiots who are also horse lovers with potential to obtain the skills to handle a horse in the way it deserves. I don't want to sell stupid horses to stupid people and have the horse suffer because it has been bred to tolerate abuses. The reason I want to sell my breed is because I want to see it flourish. I want to find people who love it like I do so when I die I know it will live on. In a way I live on if I succeed in finding these people. I don't sell because I need to eat or pay bills. I do this because I really love these horses. This brings me to your comments about people not getting help or support. I agree up to a point, but I've been here all along. Am I going to beg for the attention like many of our self-proclaimed professionals who basically feel like they must or they will starve? They behave like I am the competition when I'm not. They act like their paso neighbors are the enemy, which is so sick in the head that a phsychology expert would have to explain it to me why that is. The point is if you seek it, help and support are available. Instead of waiting for beggers to come to you, why not go out and seek it yourself, generally speaking. I don't mean just "paso" people either. Experts in bitting, riding, training abound. There are farriers, veterinarians, universities, and riding schools every where you look. You are partially responsible for having the brains to determine what is best for you and your horse. Pasos are horses first so why not start with the basics? It will work for pasos too, since (I'll say it again) pasos are horses. If you want to work at it, you can find it. It is a test you know--are you or are you not one of the "idiots". Stupid people are taken in by the flash and fame. Smart people call it as they see it and don't stop at their first meeting. If you are wanting smart help and smart support, don't you think you have to show you are not stupid as well?
This is where I disagree. We all have something to lose by making horses a hobby instead a serious passion. Look at our trainers. I'm disgusted. I've seen GOOD trainers gone to pure shit in how they ride and exhibit horses. The USA doesn't have much in a way of serious breeding farms anymore. Most are vying against one another for that one stupid buyer they think they need. Most "breeding" farms are really commercialized training facilities that pop out foals as a sideline to their training business. They literally make not train a champion thanks to modern drugs and then breed a bunch of mares acting like they've studied on it to sell to the unsuspecting. What has happened, then, is these farms want you to be stupid not smart. They want the dummies to buy in. My true feeling that if we do not turn this attitude around we all will suffer: horses and people. We will extinct ourselves right out of business if we don't start being sincere and responsible for our actions. Nothing that you have not given away will ever really be yours. I believe this. What have we, as stewards of the breed, truly given away? What is it that we think we are doing when we blast each other to smitherins for a sale? We are not giving of ourselves so how can we claim ownership of our souls? To have faith we have to give it. We have no faith, not in our breed, our people and it shows.
I agree. Protect yourself by educating yourself. Don't forget the riot gear and good insurance.
This goes back to what do you want? I don't say this in any casual way either. It is a hard question to answer. Most people don't really know what they want. They see something, they like it, so they want it. That is a very childlike way of looking at things, but we do this all the time. I finally figured out what I really wanted with my horses about 3 years ago. I see so many horses I love and like that I thought I wanted them. However, if I like a particular look, a particular way of going, a particular style, then I have to focus on what it will take to get it. So by definition this is what I "want". We are the consumers of the world so we think we deserve what ever it is we want without question. Gimme, gimme, gimme. Well, I wished it worked that way but even the richest of our breeders have flunked out because they had no clue about what it was they really wanted. It is one thing to buy a ready-made and another to maintain it once you have it. Even a car will break down if you don't take the time to learn how to keep it running. As far as where to look, again that depends on what you want to do and what you can do. An expert can look in shelters, see fantastic dogs, take them home and get a great animal. Great animals do end up in shelters because one of our idiots bought the dog and couldn't handle it. See it all the time. A dog is smarter than his owner and ends up in a shelter. Generally, I agree, responsible buyers go to responsible sellers. However, we all know exceptions exist. We know of misplaced animals owned by well meaning people who can't handle the situation. Again, what are we willing to give up to have the freedom to help? Pride? Ego? Comfort? Wealth?
I agree. We are trying to mimic the TB and QH industry by using the capital gains model, which was shot out of the water in the 80s. We can't depend on a numbers game like that. Our horses are riding horses first, not ornaments with short-lived careers. They still have the mentality of a working class animal that must have a job to be happy. Take an Aussie and try to make him an indoor house pet and see what happens. They go nuts, turn into a demolition crew and destroy the house. They want to work; they need a job. Our horses are bred to be ridden. They thrive being horses not some trophy displayed in a 12X12 stall. Sadly, though, I have seen the age of technology kill out the horse market maybe worse than the industrial age. I mean, people play virtual bowling rather than go to a real bowling alley! Virtual baseball, archery, you name it. The generation following me is stuck in a virtual world where they all are winners and there is no struggle in learning, no failures, no injury or pain. When I was in college it was easy for me to find boarding for my horses even in training barns. When I moved to Florida I could easily find boarding too. Today? Those places are gone. My riding haunts are parking lots and strip malls filled with kids "playing" sports in front of a screen or they have turned into multi-million dollar homes and gated communities. One cattle farm where you could hear the calves and mothers mooing in the mornings while fed is now on the billboards on I-75 in Orlando and Ocala being touted as the getaway for urbanites. Lots sell for a "low" of $80,000 for a few acres. I saw the same place as a real estate ad in one of the largest SE magazines. What farmer who has worked all of his life looking and smelling like cow shit, living a hard life can turn down developers? What kid in his family wants to really smell cow shit and walk knee deep in slush instead of pretending to farm with a video game? What person who wants to farm can compete with those prices and buy the farm?
Feel your pain. All I can offer you is encouragement to never stop trying. I wish I had taken lessons earlier in life. I wouldn't have so many bad habits now, but I was in the same plight. I also offer up that riding a paso is not much different than riding a horse. Find a good instructor; again, this is not an easy task. One reason I never took riding lessons was because many instructors I met were not horsemen. Find horsemen if you can, learn what you can. Be open. I have learned from various disciplines and am grateful for the exposure because I've encorporated it. Horsemen are pretty much the same no matter what equine endeavor they are involved in. It doesn't matter so much that they know specifics of the breed. You can still translate it. The principles Diego teaches are the same any good horseman will know and relate to you. Take videos and ask Diego to critique them. I bet you could set up a reasonable agreement that would mutually benefit both of you.
Oh, I think I can do the long pastern thing--don't worry. Like I said, I've got some of the best misfits around. Some good, some not so good, some just down right pure ug. No, I'm not for superlatives either good or bad. I still don't know what "tight gaited" is or what makes a "pleasure" horse so you won't hurt my feelings any. |
||||||||||||||
| Moniece |
First i'd like to thank you very much for posting this!!! And secondly I whole heartedly agree with everything you said in your explanation as to why you posted it!!! You were right, not surprising but amazing and alarming. GOOD JOB my friend  !!!!! Your friend always,Moniece
|
||||||||||||||
| britzlove |
Replying in the same dissected manner:
My point is, my focus, and the focus of others should switch to educating the right people, the right way. I won’t breed them; I know there are plenty, more than plenty, breeders who are breeding enough really good horses to supply the genuine demand. I just don’t know what to do to stem the tide of overproducing way too many problem horses, or average horses, and low quality horses, except to support the better ones in anyway possible, and hope that eventually there’s enough of a trend of buyers who will put the time, money and training into being the right kind of paso buyer.
This is the best statement and the heart of the matter. There’s just too much of the other way, too many people making a living breeding, and breeding the wrong thing, and feeding the web of bad news for the breed. The big problem I have is the wide support there is to enable these people to purposely buy the cheapest cull they can find, or somehow cut the cost to where they can continuely produce more culls or low quality, and keep defrauding people by making inaccurate statements. I know I’m sure I have to accept it, but I don’t like it that there’s not some division of some official capacity that will step in and alert buyers about fraudulent breeders and sellers. About the lessons, what I am saying is, I have been to Kay’s place 2X with the intent of trying to take lessons and thereby ride more pasos for practice instead of starting my own without such practice. I grew up learning to ride hunters, on hunters, when I decided I wanted to event, I learned about dressage and jumpers and learned to ride this type horse, on this type, so I oculd apply what I learned to my horse, when a girl joined my 4-H club who was a barrel racer, I wanted to do that, so I learned to what it took to contest right, from people who knew what they were doing so I could do it with my horse. Years later when I wanted to get into reining, I learned on reiners, from a guy, who trained reiners before it was popular. What I learned is that I already knew pretty much what I needed, with subtle adaptation. For instance: I was trained to train horses to pick up leads by subtle lift on the outside rein to open the inside shoulder, and then cue to canter by moving inside leg back a little and outside leg pressure. None of his horses though had learned this, he lifted inside rein and only used the inside pressure moved behind the girth. I learned I preferred my way, so for all my horses, they still learn to canter my way. But when I rode his good horses, I did it his way. I believe these subtleties exist for correctly riding pasos too. I understand that the fundamentals are all the same, but I just feel better about it, if I learn from the right people. I never got to see how Ricky rode, because both times I was hurried along and mostly, offered horses to buy. I don’t want to buy a horse, I want to learn from the horses and the trainers, anything I might need to know. So if this is what most people encounter, we lose a BUNCH of future paso buyers, not giving the right support. If I’m taking lessons on pasos, because I have seen an article on them, and then correctly heard from my horse owning friend, that I should take lessons first, and I am, then my lesson instructor should help me look for horses when I’m ready to buy. And, if all she has is a bunch of show horses, or young inexperienced horses, then she/he should be taking me to where the good, safe nice minded geldings are for sale. That’s what I’d like to be in the future for these horses. The person that takes the person who’s interested in the breed, from interest to knowledge to purchase, the person who having nothing for sale of her own, can take interested good paso buyers, to the right kind of paso sellers. That is BTW, if you don’t know, how I first was exposed to the breed. I had seen them at a farm when I was 9 years old, and my friend needed a gaited horse because of back injury. For my birthday present, I asked to go horse shopping, for her a gaited horse, and look at Peruvians (that I’d only seen on TV) and Paso Finos, because I was going to be so bummed if she had to ride a stupid walker. The amount of qualified pasos in the area was low, there were only 3 of maybe 10 for sale we could find that were even well under saddle. Most were unstarted, and some people even tried to sell her babies. But she found her dream horse in the VERY LAST one we looked at. That’s the way people are supposed to be exposed to horses, especially higher market horses. If you don’t care if you get screwed, go to a trader and see if you can’t find something you can ride at your own risk. We need to intercept more people in the phase of interest and steer them with the right intent. If they pick up a PFHW and they see an ad for this site, we need to have a way to get them excited about the horses, and interested. And we need to have some support so that we can put the people looking for a great gelding in touch with for instance, Hacienda Radiante, or maybe that Apollo I just got in my inbox today. Man, I could go so many directions, but, I’ll end saying, there has to be a better way, to take care of the people and the horses. |
||||||||||||||
| caliber |
I don't know about that Britz, in Florida we have a pretty open referral system! I have taken friends to many farms looking for horses and everyone seems (with some exceptions of course) very willing to make calls and re-direct people to their needs.
I do agree! The official network that we have in place at the moment is a Farm Directory, and I find that not being enough. Many of the big farms in Florida have a pretty much complete package of horses! Only a few will claim to have a restrict line that will offer a restrict thing, but we all now who they are and their fraudulent business, so we keep the serious buyers of their limits...... MAYBE ONE DAY SOON THE TRUTH WILL BE IN THE OPEN!  And I am sure their time is almost up.......................because: No HAY UN MAL QUE DURE CIEN AN^OS NI CUERPO QUE LO RESISTA
But any how! We have very well respected trainers and Clinicians offering 1 week of personalize training, and you will be surprise to see how many SERIOUS people weekly are enrolled in their program, and from the entire world! SO! I am not saying 1 week course will settle you for life, but sure will give you a settle for a long time. So, I have to disagree! we do have awesome farms with awesome trainers that are willing to lead anyone's way. YOU JUST NEED TO ASK.! You see, AWESOME PEOPLE don't need to promote themselves! so every time you see all this bullshit about a horse that looks like a camel! MY ADVISE, RUNNNNNNNNNNNN and fast! before you get trapped in their CULT with 1/2 bred CAMELS..........
So, I think we don't think very alike on this one. |
||||||||||||||
| Hacienda Radiante |
Felix, FL is rather unique in that referral network because of the concentration of paso farms there. There are far fewer breeding and training facilities the farther north and west you go.
I'm taking a small amount of offense at the statement that training farms breed as a sideline and are mainly focused on selling services rather than promoting the breed. We get people who blow in like a storm-damaged bird and land on our doorstep. In some cases they are thrilled to find 'Paso People' at all -- they have been explaining their breed choice and passion to TB/QH/Warmblood riders who wrinkle their noses at pasos. In other cases they have never seen a good quality Paso because their selection has been the $500 winners you see cropping up in the PennySaver ads. They are literally shocked to see the elegance of a better-bred Paso Fino, not to mention seeing horses where the brio has been properly managed and not allowed to become a bad temper or evil habits. Naturally (especially currently) these people are looking to fix problems in the horses they have, not buy new ones. Sometimes they have a real gem that just needs some polishing, sometimes they have companion horses that have limited potential but are dear to the owner. Every owner is REQUIRED to come and ride their horse during the training process. We do this to make sure that we are fixing the problem completely (NEWSFLASH: problems are not always the horses fault!), so they can learn more about pasos and so we can connect them with the other paso owners in the area. Do we show them our horses? Absolutely. Do we push sales on them? Absolutely not. We put them in the arena with our other clients, so they can see how the other pasos move. We show them what a Performance horse is, how a Pleasure horse should behave and the differences in 'travelin'-style' between Colombian, Puerto Rican and blended-line horses. It's not something that can happen in a 2-4 hour farm visit -- teachable moments are rarely that scheduled -- so typically we find that we are focusing on people who have horses with us for training. The point is that they are getting far more than a better-behaving animal for the cost of training -- they are learning to manage their horse and gaining a deeper understanding of the breed. If you want to classify that as a training farm with a side-interest in breeding, I guess you can, but our goal is to EDUCATE the owners to be more discriminating consumers of this breed. Whether that consumption is demanding a better-trained animal or purchasing a new one is up to them, but if you never see a well-bred, well-trained Paso, you are always going to be satisfied with what is available most cheaply. As far as the breeding part goes, well, I am learning at the feet of 'the Buddhas' (you know who you are!). I guess I'll be learning all my life about the nicks and crosses between the various lines, but I have to start somewhere, so I'm breeding the best horses I can with the knowledge I have now, and I hope history will forgive me for the occasional flub!
|
||||||||||||||
| britzlove |
Felix,
I understand what its like in FL, because you have been so gratious to me I have experienced this first hand. What I am telling everyone, is that, if Betty Midwestern House Wife (BMHW) see's an article in Horse Illustrated (which wasn't a great article anyway, but anyhow) and wants to take some of the savings she's been hanging onto for after her children have grown and get her a horse that's the envy of all her horse owning friends. She somehow has to get the information. BMHW puts "paso fino" in the search engine, and she gets : 1st link www.pfha.org/ 2nd link en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paso_Fino 3rd link www.gaitedhorses.net/BreedArticles/PasoFino.htm 4th link www.pasofino.com 5th link www.pasofino.org/ 6th link www.westwindpasos.com/ 7th link www.pasofinoelegante.com/ 8th link www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/horses/pasofino/ 9th link pasopedigree.com/ 10th link www.paradisepasofinos.com/ Some pretty good links to follow actually IMO. But, If BMHW lives in Southern Indiana with me, here are her choices for where to ride pasos: None in Indiana linked, Kentucky http://www.pfha.org/includes/html...tate=KY&country=United+States Hey try this link in IL http://www.firstclasshorsecomplex.com/ That makes you want to plan a trip a few states over doesn't it? Or say you want to go a little south of IN maybe to TN http://www.mirandyrosepasofino.com/ not updated since 2005, and look at the picture? An OK TN farm: http://www.shadycreekranch.net/For_Sale.htm Hey you know I've said dozens of times that the best to be had is down there with you in FL, but BMHW is going to look in the resources easiest to get to, then she's going to go to the farms closest. We can hope she makes it to Cuartro Rios, or Idaho instead of Illinois, but I think you're failing to see how many people can fall through the cracks. Not to mention the not so friendly, Kentucky club, if you are first exposed to the paso fino because you go to the KY show in July, forget about it, you will be treated like a monster with six heads when you try to get involved if your first question isn't "Are there any horses for sale". So this discussion came about because of deformities in the breed, becoming more common, and I guess they'll continue, because the people that don't make it to FL can be easily lost along the way. Since I'm most familiar with KY, I'll propose a KY example, instead of going to the VanLoon's place and seeing horses that compete in FL, they decide to visit a farm and are shown horses not under saddle for 4k and up, and shown horses and told 10K for a horse that will not make Nationals, they don't get to ride horses, the trainer's unavailable, then they go to the next larger KY farm, and they see 100 scruffy horses for sale that not only can't be ridden but can't be handled. They aren't likely to buy the more expensive unridden horses, they'll go cheaper, and they'll end up hearing that so and so's babies will be worth so much money, and they buy in with the plan to recoup the $. Then they find out that you can't just breed horses you paid very little for, and make tons of dough. They won't be able to sell out, and they'll keep breeding more, and there you go, thus is created the farms that are popping up everwhere outside of FL selling and promoting some other type horse and calling it paso fino, or breeding the buck kneed stallion they just got for a great deal because he was "injured in training". No SH#T Sherlock, of course he was injured in training. I was trying to think that I could help, by offering another way to experience these horses, to get more butts in saddles, and show people the right way to come in. |
||||||||||||||
| BigJ |
Note taken Radiante.
Might want to change your signature to Breeding | Training | Sales I also agree with Britzlove. My experience at every single farm I've contacted by phone, letter, or person is to ask what I'm interested in buying NOT in discussing breeding, management, training, or displaying their horses out of interest. If I'm not pretending to buy, I'd say 95% of all farms I've visited don't pretend to show me horses either. I do agree with Britz and Radiante about the paso fino network. That only exists in very densely populated paso farm communities were all you need to do is walk around the block and see at least 4-5 paso farms. There is a very good reason why Goldman, Cox, Calhoun, etc. have moved to paso country in Marion/Alachua counties or in Miami. The rest of the USA is very isolated. Come move up here with me if the paso network is so dang great. I will also add that as a gringa my acceptance has been dependent on Latino introductions otherwise I'm ignored. My web persona gets more respect than I do in real life--sad state of affairs. Back to the point here. Yes, people can fall through the cracks IF they are left believing the only way to learn about paso finos is to depend ONLY on paso fino people. I'm saying that one can learn allot about pasos by learning about horses and by finding horsemen. Last I looked pasos still produce like other horses, have the same anatomy, same biology, same inheritance mechanisms, same feed requirements. I don't see vets that specialize in pasos only because they are different from other horses. The same saddles, bits, halters, all work on a paso. Conformation holds for all pasos. I don't see saddle galls forming where splints are on other horses or a fistula on a wither boiling up on a tail shank. I believe what we also need to focus on is what phenotype--the look-is desired in conjunction with conformation. Good conformation does not mean the horse has good paso fino phenotype. And to be fair to Felix--I would say he's trying as fast and as hard as he can to get the info out. We all have other lives we live so let's help out as best as we can. Brit, I'm all for seeing more butts on top of more nice pasos. I still believe that's where the horse is at its best too. I think the issue boils down to not if pasos have confo faults--boy howdy do they--but the frequency seen now and why. Since pasos are no longer ridden harshly for long hours, faults that would normally cause them to break down aren't noticed. Not in the show ring, not the way the horses are judged today. Today we "protect" them by making sure our winner doesn't work too long to show the faults. Judges go through the tests like zombies in a Pete and Repete rhyme. I'm no longer confident our judges even know why they ask for certain things or why the rules require it. I see no certification process that tells me they even know conformation, gait, phenotype of the breed. |
||||||||||||||
| Pasofinoguy |
I do like That farm also. And I have met Ricky at a show along time ago when i was just starting out. And I had a problem and he helped me fix it. We didnt know eachother but he had no problem helping me. In fact many trainers say hi to me and remember me even though they only see me once a year. | ||||||||||||||
| caliber |
Hacienda Radiante, I think we both are saying the same thing. I do understand, I am completely aware of the Paso population and where the concentration of most farms are located in our country. I am also aware of many back yard farms with EXCELLENT horses that will never be shown, but they serve great to the breed .....Thank you for sharing a part of your program! I do know some of your horses and true devotion to this breed! 
When I, mentioned a week with a trainer or clinician, I meant the following: 8 to 9 hours per day, 2 of those hours are between you, the horse and the trainer, for a total of 6 days! Fifty six hours are plenty, to grasp a pretty good idea of this breed. I do agreed! we are all learning! and we will die only knowing 1/4! Is my favorite say! THE MARES HAVE NOT EVEN FIGURE OUT THE STALLIONS YET, how can say we have! But, ain't hard for me to distinguish a PASO from a Camel, and a true 100% Pure Paso from a 25% cross breed with a Paso Fino Registry. Those are the horses I personally classify them as CAMELS! no matter their popularity or name. Thank you all for participating. I have enjoyed every single reply! But like Cindy said, lets try to continue concentrating on the original intention of this THREAD (including me) that is Colombia (being one of the 2 countries of Origin of this breed) recognizing certain faults that we as breeders, trainers, owners should seriously become more aware and educated for a better future of the BREED. Again, Thank You... all for participating. Saludos! |
||||||||||||||
| britzlove |
It has taken me some time to come back to this.
It's likely that I was posting the wrong things to the wrong thread to begin with, because I thought the thread was more generally about certain faults in all countries. Since I've never been able to see how other countries work, I am only able to speak to my experience here. This is perhaps where I went wrong. But I still say, here, the problem is, we aren't creating the right enviorment to create good horses here. We don't support the knowledge of what is right and what is wrong, or somewhere in between, we encourage people to breed these horses and throw every road block there is up to keep information quiet. Breeders sell horses on the premise that their foals will sell, knowing darn good and well they aren't breeding quality. Or, worse, they sell horses on the same premise, and DON'T know what breeding quality is. It's a tough competition to get ANY usable information about this breed. Newcomers to the breed must jump in a pool full of bull sharks, and I am asking myself why they would want to. So, here's the deal. I never once, said that horses with QC in their name were poorly bred, I believe the opposite. I never once said anything negative about Mr. Mendoza, in fact I rather like to watch him ride. I did say that my experience was, that I wanted to learn about the training of the horses, something I've been trying for a long time, and was never offered anything other than horses for sale. Now, I am not going to send my horse to a trainer to learn that, and it has been my experience prior to this, that many, many trainers in other disciplines have no problem giving me lessons with the added information on training theory. I also related my experience of feeling like if I didn't buy a QC horse, I wasn't invited or valued in the KY paso circle. I wish I could say that I am the only one that felt that way. I've also talked about some experience a friend had while I was present, who was buying. I also mentioned, that I think it's terrible that any breeder would allow their products to fall through the cracks without concern. To me, the very fact that two people got very defensive as if I were unjustly attacking someone, when I was simply relating my experience, has plenty to show people reading that I too find much of the paso community unwelcoming and when threatened the reaction is to circle the wagons. BigJ said:
This is a problem, so, since it's not welcome here, I'm going to start a new thread to talk about it. I'm also going to work very hard at getting my newer tie posts installed so that I can have a nice flat place to photograph my horses. Then, I'll start tracing horses or drawing horses to illustrate the things which are threatening the breed. |
||||||||||||||