Standard Characteristics of ELEVATIONS

caliber · Standard Characteristics of ELEVATIONS

We often get very confused on gait! we find many different versions and many BREEDERS informing the GENERAL public their version of gait.
On this picture you will find the difference between each modality!

ON THIS PICTURE YOU WILL FIND THE STANDARDS!

Picture Taken from the book: El Caballo Colombiano Cinco Siglos De Historia, by: Fedequinas

BigJ

Thanks for posting this Felix. This is my first exposure to these standards.

I'd like to share my thoughts on this, but before I do, could you elaborate on why the elevation or animation of the leg is important? Also, I was wondering if a horse of a different modality does not meet these standards how is the horse faulted? For instance, some Colombians suggested El Imponente would have been a trocha pura, yet he had very little height or animation in his legs. Could he have been competitive in trocha? Another thought is the continuing trend in our PFHA performance classes to encourage relatively more leg height sacrificing other characteristics in mechanics for the flashiness of animation. How does the standard speak to this continuing trend---how much does animation weigh compared to other traits?

Please do not take my comments as derogatory against any horse specifically mentioned. I am not suggesting one is "better" than the other nor care to involve show politics in the discussion nor care to critique an animal as being suitable in one form or function. I am merely making comments based on observation or conversation. I'd like for our dialogues here to remain more "pure" in format and focused on learning. For this, I feel there will be a need to mention specific examples on a regular basis.

caliber

Candice you have great questions! I will be back with my point of views and will like to invite others for theirs also!

Saludos!

grif

Whose standards? Are you saying that if a horse lifts it's legs in the manner of the second and third photos that it is not in Paso Fino gait? Not in an even four beat, taca, taca, taca? Because if you are, I beg to differ. The height of the legs has nothing at all to do with whether a horse is in Paso Fino gait or not. As for the diagonals, that may be a good way to define the difference between trocha and trote, I don't know. Quite frankly I don't care about that aspect of the disussion as I do not deal with the diagonals, only the Paso Fino. But I do have a problem with defining Paso Fino gait by that standard.

BigJ

just for clarification:

grif

Yep. Waiting with baited breath here. Come on Felix. popcorn

Kerry W

caliber

grif

Ah......what to do while we wait?.......... BooHoo

......sooooo many things. Better hurry Felix, we may get ourselves in some big trouble if you leave us all alone for too long. See ya..... scram

caliber

grif

This popcorn is getting stale.

BigJ

Kerry W

Okay, thanks Candice...I see what you are saying.

BigJ

Whew! I'm glad because sometimes it ain't so easy to explain.

Kerry W

It was early enough in the day...my brain wasn't overly cluttered yet! Laughing

grif

BigJ

Thanks!

britzlove

Hmmm, OK now that I have found this thread and all the wind has gone out of it for the time being, I will add my thoughts and questions, not sure which it will be.

From the pictures, I notice one thing I've just found in observance of different horses over time. If that picture included the shoulder portion, hmm, I'll need to look up the Spanish for that in a minute, but any way, if more of the horse was shown, the shoulders would be deeper and stronger in angle on the diagonal horses. Now understand going into this, I am terrible at putting into conversation, my thoughts as they are.

What I mean is, the majority of trocha horses I have seen have a very deep, very angled shoulder. and hip too, but lets stick to shoulder since only the front end was shown. BUT, and see here's the young student thing, like right now I am looking at my wall calendar, which has a fino CH on there, and his shoulders pretty deep, but the distance at the neck tie in makes it look less so. OK, here's where I have no idea whether you can make sense of what I'm saying. But it's something I see, readily, and easily, a major difference in the horses that are trocha, certainly trote, and even to some extent horses that are fino, but shift towards trocha as often as they can.

I'm wondering if maybe I can diagram it.

Where I tie this physical difference into the discussion, is experience outside the breed. QH's breed for western pleasure, english pleasure classes have tapped into a certain type build so that they can't freely get but action in their gaits. They have taken it so far as a handicap, so that's not at all what I am saying, but I mean to say that the angles here and head and neck placement can have an affect on how a horse is able to perform.

I certainly believe that the photo was not a means rather to explain gait difference as much to provide an example of typical elevations seen in each modality. That's making room to say there are atypical examples as well, plenty of them. But I bet if we were to view 100 random samples of each, we'd see that there are enough similiar to provide with the feeling that this is aspect having something to do with gait.

I really hope that made sense. or a little sense.

caliber

quoted by: Britzlove
I certainly believe that the photo was not a means rather to explain gait difference as much to provide an example of typical elevations seen in each modality. That's making room to say there are atypical examples as well, plenty of them. But I bet if we were to view 100 random samples of each, we'd see that there are enough similiar to provide with the feeling that this is aspect having something to do with gait.

I really hope that made sense. or a little sense.Quoted!

Great observation Britz and makes all sense. Kerry should be posting the translation from Angela Ochoa, our dear friend Angela was kind enough to help us with drafts... based on many Talleres (clinics,worshops) and observations presented in Colombia.

We all know that in the States we have 3 different types of classes!, the Classic Fino, Performance and Pleasure...keep in mind that in Colombia we only have ONE, the PASO FINO COLOMBIANO.....

sorry, this article has taken so long to be posted, but we wanted to be certain that we had the correct intention and was comprehended....

BigJ

It makes sense to me Britz.

I concur. To elaborate further, how the neck ties in is something few who criticize pasos for straight shoulders really take a look at. Now I'm not from another breed, so cannot say if this is true or not; however, it seems I read allot about the shoulder angle from folks who seem to be comparing pasos to other breeds. Well, perhaps pasos are straighter in the shoulder than other breeds, but are they truly that straight? If they are then we are breeding the same restrictions of movement in our horses.

As to the questions about foot elevation, I am still waiting to hear from a reliable source rather than continue to conjecture. Colombia is far advanced in many aspects of the breed. I've noticed the approach is much more analytical in some ways.

I don't mind waiting.

britzlove

I'm getting ready to scan some examples I think. I had to post my intro.

Kerry W

No pressure!!

britzlove

crud...scanner problems
I'll post as soon as I can

grif

BigJ

grif

BigJ

I agree.

I also think it would be good to slowly and systematically begin these other topics as well under this forum. I lost count how many things Britz brought up, but I think they all deserve an indepth discussion.

grif

For sure.

caliber

By Angela Ochoa

This is not completed! there is the chart and the pictures to go along with this!!!!! PLEASE KEEP hanging in there!

Hay algunas cosas en las que no estoy muy de acuerdo. Por ejemplo:

There are something that I find myself not agreeing. For example;

1. La trocha colombiana tambien llamada pasitrote, en su mecánica de movimiento es un aire intermedio entre el paso fino y el trote, por lo tanto, la elevación de sus extremidades es intermedia.

1. The Colombian trocha also call pasitrote, in this mechanic of movement is an intermediate air between the paso fino and the trote, therefore, the elevation of the extremities is intermediate.

Es la primera vez que oigo que la trocha se llama pasi-trote, Por el contrario pasi-trote es un defecto en la locomocion del caballo colombiano que se considera por reglamento como falta descalificante. Me parece, que este articulo es una buena oportunidad para aclarar que las modalidades colombianas son muy definidas: el trote es trote y la trocha es trocha. de hecho el trote es en dos tiempos y la trocha en 4.

Pasi-trote is a shortcoming in the locomotion of the Colombian horse that is considered to be by regulation an absence DESQUALIFIED descalificante.

It seems to me, that this article is a good opportunity to clarify that the Colombian modalities are very definite: the trote is a trote and the trocha is a trocha. In fact the trote is a two beat gait and the trocha is a four beat gait.

2. si premiamos trotones con braceo bajito no solo vamos a crear confusiones a los criadores en sus parámetros de crianza, sino también vamos a modificar su conformación.

2. If we reward trotons with low hands not only we are going to create confusion to the breeders in his parameters of breeding, but also we are going to modify the conformation.

Para premiar un caballo necesitas un puntaje. Del 100 % de la tabla de Confepaso o Fedequinas: Fenotipo 26 % , manejo 24 % y movimiento 50 %; las extremidades anteriores tienen en esa tabla un valor preestablecido de 6%, eso quiere decir que si tienes un caballo de buen fenotipo, bien adiestrado y con buenos movimientos aunque probablemente no sea el de mayor elevacion puede ser un buen candidato a obtener una cinta, es el caso de una excelente yegua muy ganadora en colombia que se llama La Caprichosa, no la mas braceadora pero de excelente conjunto, de hecho es la campeona de las nacionales del año pasado y el ejemplar de año hembra en trote y galope.
Si por el contrario tienes un ejemplar de elevacion correcta pero tiene problemas de entrenamiento y posiblemente no la acompaña el mejor fenotipo al hacer los puntajes que debemos hacer los jueces para elaborar el marcador, puede ser que la primera tenga 85 puntos y la segunda 68. Por eso me parece drastico descalificar los caballos solo por que no tienen la elevacion correcta y aseverar que no podemos premiarlos por que confundimos a los criadores. Ahora que si tenemos dos ejemplares con puntajes similares y uno de ellos presenta mayor elevacion, eso puede ser un argumento que haga la diferencia para colocarlos en el marcador que se puede explicar en el microfono.

To reward a horse you need a score. Of 100 % of the scoring of CONFEPASO or Fedequinas: Phenotype 26 %, handling 24% and movement 50%; the previous extremities have in this scoring a pre-established value of 6%. If you have a horse of good phenotype, trained well and with good movements, although perhaps not perfect elevation, it can be a good candidate for winning a ribbon. It is the case of an excellent winning mare in Colombia, named La Caprichosa, not more low moving but of excellent form, in fact there is the champion of the nationals last year and the Horse of the Year, a female in trote and galope.
If on the contrary you have a horse of correct elevation but it has problems of training and possibly the best phenotype does not accompany her on having done the scoring that we must make the judges to prepare the scoreboard, it can be that the first one has 85 points and the second one 68. That's why it seems to me drastic to discredit the horses only as that they do not have the correct elevation and to affirm that we cannot reward for that we confuse the breeders. Now when if we have two copies with scoring similar and one of them presents major elevation, this can be an argument that does the difference to place them in the scoreboard that it is possible to explain in the microphone.

3. Un caballo de paso fino con mucha elevación de posteriores y un braceo muy bajo, si bien en algunos casos podría ser importante como reproductor para compensar defectos en muchas yeguas de cría, en la pista no debe ser el mejor, pues allí deben ganar los que mas se acerquen al prototipo.

3. A Paso Fino horse with high elevation in the rear and very low hands, although in some cases it might be important as a breeding animal to compensate shortcomings in many mares' foals, in the show ring it must not be placed first, since there they must award those who more approach the prototype.

Tambien me parece una aseveracion arriesgada. La mayor cualidad en comun que tienen caballos como Capitan, La Petra, Terremoto, Tormento, Tartaro, la recientemente muerta campeona colombiana y ejemplar del año 2007 Esfinge de Lusitania y la campeona nacional 2008 hace un mes en Bogota y campeona de campeonas Pecadora de Yerbabuena, es justamente la elasticidad y elevacion de su tren posterior sin perder por esto ni suavidad o velocidad ni, importantisimo: !!Quietud de anca !! La frase que citas sugiere que los caballos Paso fino deben ser patiarrastrados. Cuando en un caballo Paso fino que trabaja a gran velocidad, ejemplo Simbolo de Besilu a 680 batidas por minuto, justamente la dificultad radica en realizarlas con elasticidad y elevacion del tren posterior por que le agrega mayor dificultad que realizarlas sin ejecucion o patiarrastrados.

Also it looks like to me a risky assertion. The biggest quality together that have horses as Capitan, La Petra, Terremoto, Tormento, Tartaro, recently Colombian champion in 2007, now deceased, Esfinge de Lusitania, and the national champion 2008 one month ago in Bogota and champions' champion, Pecadora de Yerbabuena, it is exactly the elasticity and elevation of the hocks, without losing gentleness or speed not, the most important:!! Quietness of croup!! The phrase that he suggests appointments that Paso Fino Spent the horses they must have low rear movement. When in a Paso Fino horse that works at high speed, example Simbolo de Besilu up to 680 beats per minute, exactly the difficulty takes root in realizing them with elasticity and elevation of the hinds for which he adds major difficulty that them to realize without execution or low rear movement.

Estos 7 ejemplos, que son la crema y nata del paso Fino, el tren posteror, que igualmente vale 6% en la tabla, tienen 6 sobre 6; no hacerlo como ellos empieza a rebajar puntaje

These examples, which are the cream and cream of the Paso Fino, the train posterior (hind movements, that likewise is worth 6% in the board, have 6 on 6; if they do not do it, it begins to lower the score. I like to see: Polished, rapid, beautiful, excellent frame, brio, ideal elevation. They lose points for not having the elevation that the judges are looking for.

Felix te agradezco que me permitas opinar sobre lo que estas escribiendo, dejame extraer otra parte de la conferencia de la tabla de Confepaso o fedequinas que es la herrameieta en la cual se basan los juzgamientos que te pueden ayudar.

Felix I am grateful to you that you allow me to comment on what you are writing, allow me to extract another part of the conference of the table of Confepaso or fedequinas that is the tools(herrameieta) on which there are based the judging) juzgamientos that can help you

Kerry W

caliber

Here is the Chart that Angela Ochoa is talking about

Fedequinas Judging Chart

Fenotipo:

Conjunto de aspectos que hacen referencia a la conformación física de cada caballo.

•Aplomos: Líneas verticales que se deben evaluar en los miembros de soporte del ejemplar. Se evalúan en movimiento y apoyo.

•Color: Conjunto de la caracterización cromática en la capa que cubre la piel, incluidas crines y cola, cara cuerpo y extremidades. Colores básicos: Negro, Castaño, zaino, alazán, Moro y bayo. Secundarios: Cervuno, rosillo, ruano cisne.

Phenotype:

Set of aspects that reference the physical conformation of every horse.

•Composures: Vertical lines that must be evaluated in the members of support of the horse. They are evaluated in movement and support.

•Color: Set of the chromatic characterization in the layer that covers the skin, includes mane and tail, face, body and extremities. Basic colors: Black, red bay, black bay, chestnut, grey and buckskin. Secondary: Deer colored, bay roan, roan swan.

Adiestramiento:

Se define como tal la educación recibida por el caballo para responder a las órdenes de su jinete con prontitud y mansedumbre.

•Sostenimiento: Constancia con la cual el ejemplar ejecuta su ritmo con la misma y mejor cadencia por el mayor tiempo posible.

•Rienda: Facilidad de dirigir al ejemplar a través del freno o embocadura, en cualquier sentido con apoyo suave, llevando el montador sus manos juntas. Se entiende estas ordenes deben producirse con la mayor suavidad y respeto por el ejemplar.

•Posición de cabeza: Máxima expresión de elegancia y naturalidad del conjunto cabeza cuello Lo mas cercano a la vertical con respecto al suelo.

Training:

The education for the horse is defined as such to answer to the orders of his rider with eager willingness and docility.

•Support: Consistency with which the horse executes his rhythm with the best cadence in the best possible tempo.

•Rein: Facility of directing the horse with soft support, through the rider's hands. These orders must take place with the greatest gentleness and respect for the horse.

•Position of head: Maximum expression of elegance and naturalness of the joint of head and neck (poll) the nearest thing to being vertical with the ground.

Movimientos:

•Tren anterior: es el conjunto de formado por los dos miembros anteriores o brazos del ejemplar.
Se evalúan los componentes de energía y elasticidad como factor de avance suavidad para cada uno de los andares que conforman el Caballo Criollo Colombiano.

•Tren posterior: Es el conjunto formado por los dos miembros posteriores o patas del ejemplar.
El tren anterior guardará armonía con el tren posterior. Se evaluarán los componentes de elasticidad, energía, equilibrio, balance como factor de impulso y suavidad para cada uno de los andares que conforman el Caballo Criollo Colombiano.

•Quietud de anca: Expresa la serenidad y estabilidad del anca tanto vertical como horizontal.

•Suavidad: Serenidad y comodidad con la cual el ejemplar trasporta su jinete. Es la más relevante cualidad de los diferentes andares colombianos.

•Ritmo: Proporción guardada entre el tiempo de un movimiento y el de otro diferente.

•Cadencia: Velocidad del ritmo. Representada en número de batidas por unidad de tiempo.

•Brío: Energía de carácter genético y condición innata de responder al estímulo.

•Temperamento: Expresión del carácter o genio como factor genético, se manifiesta con el comportamiento y se moldea con buen manejo.

•Armonía: Es la mejor expresión visual sonora. Es el equilibrio dado entre la mejor expresión de fenotipo, comportamiento y movimiento del ejemplar.

Movements:

•Anterior Train: it is the movement of the front legs of the horse.
Here we evaluate the components of energy and elasticity and smoothness for each of the gaits that shape the CCC.

•Posterior Train: It is the movement of the rear legs of the horse.
The front leg movements will keep harmony with the rear leg movements. Here we evaluate the components of elasticity, energy, balance, balance as a factor of impulsion and smoothness for each of the gaits that shape the CCC.

•Quietness of Croup: It expresses the serenity and stability of the croup, both vertically and horizontally.
•Smoothness: Serenity and comfort with which the horse transports his rider. It is the most excellent quality of the different Colombian gaits.

•Rhythm: Proportion kept between the time of one movement to the next.

•Cadence: Speed of the rhythm. Represented by the number of footfalls for a unit of time.

•Brio: Energy of genetic character and innate condition to respond to the stimulus.

•Temperament: Expression of the character or genius as genetic factor, it demonstrates with the behavior and is molded by good handling.

•Harmony: Is the best resounding visual expression. It is the balance given among the best expression of phenotype, behavior and movement of the horse.

caliber

Bump!

BigJ

Thank you Kerry, Felix and Angela for sharing this article.

I'll preface my statments with the hope that I can be myself here and provide candid, although sometimes, awkward thoughts as I am still trying to learn about the paso horses.

The article has provided more questions that answers for me. It seems to have been written for an audience already familiar with the other Colombian modalities, which I am not. I'm afraid that some of my interpretation is lacking a true comprehensive foundation in order to respond in that context.

One comment that caught my eye and I'd love to someone who knows these modalities to respond about how by deviating from the ideal elevations may change the conformation therefore the phenotype desired. I'd like to know if I have understood this correctly and if so how this statement is incoroprated into prepetuating the differing modalities.

Unfortunately as many Colombians who I know are in the USA and as many who I know read such forums as PasoVoice, I've yet to meet anyone willing to teach a person like me what the goals are for the TYG and Trochadors. All these years and I'm still left having to search through the chaff left overs to find a tidbit worth keeping.

With that, I'm going to set aside this subject for another day until I'm better acquainted with the modalities discussed. I'm extremely uncomfortable with sharing any further thoughts on this until I have a better understanding.

Bottom line: I am as confused as ever by these elevation standards. How did they come about? Who developed them? Why are they important? How much influence does it have with showing or breeding? Do the Colombian breeders, trainers, exhibiters, spectators, agree? What were or are the alternative thoughts on this? Was there a debate, opposition, or an enmass agreement to this goal and why?

caliber

Candice Burger Quoted:
Thank you Kerry, Felix and Angela for sharing this article.

The article has provided more questions that answers for me. It seems to have been written for an audience already familiar with the other Colombian modalities, which I am not. I'm afraid that some of my interpretation is lacking a true comprehensive foundation in order to respond in that context.

One comment that caught my eye and I'd love to someone who knows these modalities respond was about how by deviating from the ideal elevations may change the conformation therefore the phenotype desired. I'd like to know if I have understood this correctly and if so how this statement is incoroprated into prepetuating the differing modalities.

Unfortunately as many Colombians who I know are in the USA and as many who I know read such forums as PasoVoice, I've yet to meet anyone willing to teach a person like me what the goals are for the TYG and Trochadors. All these years and I'm still left having to search through the chaff left overs to find a tidbit worth keeping.

I'm extremely uncomfortable with sharing any further thoughts on this until I have a better understanding.

Bottom line: I am as confused as ever by these elevation standards. How did they come about? Who developed them? Why are they important? How much influence does it have with showing or breeding? Do the Colombian breeders, trainers, exhibiters, spectators, agree? What were or are the alternative thoughts on this? Was there a debate, opposition, or an enmass agreement to this goal and why?
QUOTE:

Felix Response:

Candice, you have very good points, I don’t think in GENERAL no one will agree that elevation can determine a modality or ever will.
I also have plenty of questions in reference to that, in speaking with Angela, an others, we all agree on ONE THING, if the horse is doing a perfect gait in which ever modality…. then, elevations really will not be the focus point of determination.

With all due respect, at the moment I have to say, I found myself disagreeing with many STATEMENTS from where this context came from (book).

My appreciations to Angela Ochoa for the information shared!

Kerry W

From what I gathered from the article, the elevation is only given a small percentage of weight, in the overall presentation of the horse in the show ring.

In the statement that you referred to, Candice...Angela pointed out the falsehood of the statement, because when you look at the overall picture of the horse, elevation does not weigh that much. The statement made, let the reader believe that pinning a horse with less than "perfect" elevation, would confuse breeders, which would change the face of the breed, by encouraging them to breed for the incorrect elevation standard. Being that elevation does not carry that much weight, she felt that the statement was erroneous...that most breeders aim for overall quality, and are not quite that focused on elevation alone.

As Britz surmised, the photos of the elevations, are what is considered "average" for the different modalities. After studying the different modalities, these are the elevations that they found to be the most common representations of elevation for their respective modalities.

BigJ

I understand Felix and Kerry. I agree with Angela on the role elevations play overall--very little when all else is correct and very little if other greater issues are not.

I'm trying to be considerate and respectful, but my curiousity is about to take over. I'm curious about why such a subject or attempt at even bringing about a standard was done. Whether I agree or not is less the issue than me trying to understand why even bring the subject up in the first place. Was it an attempt to provide guidance to "fix" phenotype in the modalities or to encourage a general guideline for judges? I am interested in how other fellow Colombians think about this either way. Maybe there is some information here that is useful even if there is no agreement on the topic in general.

This is only my observations but the paso fino horse benefits in other countries because it is discussed and carefully researched unlike here in the USA where a horse is nothing more than a hobby or a babysitter. Our discussions about horses in this country, well frankly, are lacking in depth. We debate rather simple things that are so obvious and so well accepted by any other paso fino community. So we do miss out on many, many conferences and other events were very serious discussions about breed development, policy, etc, are presented. I have no bearing and am trying to find a reference point that I understand to get the topic in focus.

A background about where I'm coming from on all of this:
I've been reading with interest all the theories about how phenotype affects gait. For the record, I do not agree with this and I base my opinion on observation. Although some angles and some phenotypic feature "may" play a role when all else is equal, normally it does not have a greater influence than genetics. In other words, either a horse has inherited the genes to gait whatever modality it was bred for or it doesn't. Yes, there is a phenotype that goes along with this but that has more to do with how the modality is expressed.

I certainly did not agree with some comments about how the croup angle affected rear end mechanics for gait. Mechanics, perhaps, but not gait. They are not synonymous. I did not agree that a trochador had to have certain angles to be trocha and a paso others to be paso. Dr. Torres' study helped to prove my thoughts on this. I'm still trying to get a copy of that study by the way. A flatter croup doesn't make a horse better gaited any more than a more sloping one. There's too many variables and too many, probably polychromosomal, expressions that demonstrate this to be untrue. Yet, I have read several articles that promote this idea as a truism.

So, back to this elevation standard. What I am trying to understand is what is prompting such standards to be defined like shoulder angles, croup angles, etc.? All I have is some heresay about how there have been discussions about trying to fix and purify the modalities and phenotype of Colombian horses. Did this approach stem from this or from something that I have not been exposed to?

Sorry, this is so long, as I have many questions and want to assure everyone I am trying to understand the reasoning behind the standards. I recall when the cattle industry attempted to make standards like this for phenotype, which were abandoned when it became evident it was impractical and sometimes detrimental. However, the attempt was meant to give breeders and the cattle industry a cow that would provide a consistent product using simple metrics to base their decisions.

grif

Candice, in the "From the center of the ring" newsletter that was just e-mailed to us Bobby included a note at the end that DVDs are available with the information discussed during both Dr. Torres' and Angela Ocho's presentations. Contact the PFHA office for a copy.

BigJ

Thanks Cindy,

Do you know if it includes the presentations from the J&S clinic in 2007? They are the ones I'm intersted in. Dr. Torres presented a topic based on some research he had done in Colombia trying to correlate angles/phenotype to gait. I think he published the paper as well but I'm not sure. If I knew the journal that the paper was published I might be able to get a copy through the university system here or at least try.

The presentation at the J&S clinic had a table summary of statistical results from the study. I was interested in looking at the actual data and the statics from the original study.

Also Derek made a presentation about the croup movement that I thought was also very enlightening.

I also want to clarify a statement I made earlier

Kerry W

From Angela Ochoa on elevation:

Lo importante que los jueces deben evaluar con respecto al punto de la elevacion en el paso fino es la naturalidad, esto es mas importante que lo media o baja que pueda ser. Solo la elevacion natural se puede convertir en una condicion hereditable, la elevacion baja que no es natural y que se da como resultado de caballos que se trabajan sin herrar o que se produce por dolor debe ser penalizada fuertemente. La primera funcion de los jueces es defender la salud e integridad de los caballos.

An important factor that the judges must consider, with regard to the point of the elevation in the Paso Fino, is the naturalness. This is more important than if it is higher or lower than is desired. Only the natural elevation is heritable trait. The low elevation that is not natural and that happens as result of horses that are worked without shoeing or with soreing, must be penalized strongly. The primary function of the judges is to defend the health and integrity of the horses.

Lo mas importante al respectoes que sea una elevacion compensada, no solo las manos, los posteriores tambien son muy importantes y deben ser nivelados para que el sonido coincida con el esperado de 2 o 4 tiempos. No necesariamente entre mas bajito sea el paso fino mejor y aunque puede ser una cualidad no es lo mas importante, La Maraquita y el Tormento no son precisamente bajitos y ellos son los campeones mundiales.

The most important thing, in respect to the elevation, is that it is a compensated elevation, not only the hands (front legs), the rear legs also are very important. They must be equal, so that the sound should be 2 or 4 beats. Lower elevation, does not necessarily make a better Paso Fino and although it may be a quality, it is not the most important thing. La Maraquita and Tormento are not very low handed, and they are the world champions.

grif

Candice, I don't have any more info on the DVDs than what I posted. But didn't they say at the clinic that the presentation of Dr. Torres was the same one that he presented at the previous clinic but ran out of time?

BigJ

I think so, Cindy.

No matter, I really enjoyed some of the presentations at the J&S clinincs. It keeps me coming back. I wish more of those types of clinics were available and more members would attend. Of course, the room was at capacity last couple of years. I don't know if the clinic organizations would be prepared for a bunch of non J&S types showing up. You judge types look more human up close! Razz

I'll send a request for a copy of the DVD.

Kerry W

Hola Candice,

Espero poder responder algunas de sus preguntas.

La tabla de puntaje de Fedequinas es el resultado de más de 60 años de trabajo en la pista colombiana. De evaluar errores y aciertos en los juzgamientos y la cría de caballos; y de unificar el criterio de expositores, criadores, jueces, entrenadores y conocedores del tema. Nace hace algunos años como respuesta a la necesidad de cuantificar las cualidades de los caballos para que sirva de herramienta a los jueces, al público y a los criadores. No siempre las divisiones de fenotipo, adiestramiento y movimiento tuvieron los mismos valores. Nace hace algunos años como respuesta a la necesidad de cuantificar las cualidades de los caballos para que sirva de herramienta a los jueces, al público y a los criadores. No siempre las divisiones de fenotipo, adiestramiento y movimiento tuvieron los mismos valores. Con el tiempo han ido variando según evoluciona la raza, la última modificación se hizo hace unos 4 años y Confepaso adopto los mismos valores. Hoy en día, después de muchas discusiones en Colombia todos estamos identificados con esta tabla que esta incluida en el reglamento. Para los jueces es una gran ayuda en el momento de elaborar nuestros resultados y en la explicación por el micrófono de cada clase que en Colombia es obligatoria.

En USA las tablas de valores de la PFHA son diferentes, varían dependiendo de la clase que se juzga, y los jueces deben por reglamento ajustar sus decisiones
a los siguiente valores:

CLASSIC FINO

•75% Ejecución

•15% Phenotype, Conformatión and desplazamiento

•10% Good manners.

PERFORMANCE

•30% Paso corto - 30% Paso largo - 10% Walk

•20% Appearance y conformation.

•10% Good manners

PLEASURE

•25% Paso corto - 25% Paso largo - 10% Flat Walk

•40% Good manners, conformatión, actitud

Si la tabla de Fedequinas se va a aplicar en la cría, se debe cambiar el agregado por manejo por la valoración de la calidad de los reproductores y yeguas que aparecen en el pedigree, agregando valor también a lo que se puede llamar “adiestrabilidad” que quiere decir la facilidad o dificultad de algunas razas de caballos para asimilar la enseñanza del entrenamiento. Sirve para que cada criador pueda valorar su yegua y los posibles candidatos a reproductores y por ultimo ayuda después de hacer este análisis a definir cuales son las cualidades y defectos que fija cada línea de sangre.

Por ultimo estoy 100% de acuerdo con Big J: la elevación es un punto mas para conciderar en la evaluación de cada caballo pero no el definitivo al momento de tomar una decisión, esta es resultado de un conjunto de cualidades que presenta cada competidor.

Perdon por extender mi respuesta. Les propongo que si tienen alguna pregunta y yo la puedo responder lo haré. Si no sé la respuesta me comprometo a investigarla para que aprendamos todos.

Angela Ochoa

Hello Candice

I hope to be able to answer some of your questions.

The table of points of Fedequinas is the result of more than 60 years of work in the Colombian show arena, of evaluating errors and things done correctly in the judgment and the breed of horses; and of unifying the criteria of exhibitors, breeders, judges, trainers and connoisseurs of the subject. It came about some years ago in response to the need to quantify the qualities of the horses so that it serves as tool for the judges, the public and the breeders.

The divisions of phenotype, training and movement have not always had the same values. With time they have been changing as the breed evolves, the last modification was approximately 4 years ago and Confepaso adopted the same values. Nowadays, after many discussions in Colombia we all are use this table that is included in the regulation. For the judges it is a big help in the moment to prepare our results and in the explanation for the microphone in every class, which in Colombia is obligatory.

In the USA the set of values of the PFHA is different, it changes depending on the class that is judged, and the judges have to for regulation fit his decisions to following values:

CLASSIC FINO

• 75% Execution

• 15% Phenotype, conformation and movement

• 10% Good manners

PERFORMANCE

• 30% Corto - 30% Largo - 10% Walk

• 20% Appearance and conformation

• 10% Good manners, conformation, attitude

PLEASURE

•25% Paso corto - 25% Paso largo - 10% Flat Walk

•40% Good manners, conformation, attitude

If the table of Fedequinas is to be applied to the breed, we should change the way we manage the evaluation of the quality of the stallions and mares that appear in a pedigree, adding value also to what is called "adiestrabilidad", which means the ease or difficulty of some lines of horses to absorb the education of their training. It serves each breeder to evaluate his mare and the possible candidates of stallions, and finally it helps after doing this analysis to define which are the qualities and shortcomings of each bloodline.

Finally I am 100% in agreement with Big J: the elevation is one more point for consideration in the evaluation of every horse, but not the definitive one in the moment to make a decision, this is a result of a set of qualities that each horse presents.

Pardon me for the delay in my response. I propose to everyone, that if they have some question and I can answer it that I will. If I do not know the answer, I promise to investigate it so that we all might learn.

Angela Ochoa

BigJ

Thank you Angela for taking the time to answer my questions and to Kerry/Felix for taking the time to post it for me. I have a better reference; I hope a better understanding.

I am not in disagreement at all with quantifying traits. I see it as constructive and helpful when assessing an animal an any level from riding on a trail to assessing genotype. However, I am worried about how a tool becomes the master and the master is then nothing more than a tool. The reason for my concerns, to be blunt, is I still think the USA has not developed the sophistication of understanding the breed like in the countries of origin. We are much further along in some ways and in other ways we have taken a few steps backward.

I realize we are discussing a dynamic system between man and his relationship with the horse that is constantly changing as we learn and adjust. I believe what we lack here in the USA is a place to learn and to educate, which will provide confidence and security in our decisions. It will prevent us from becoming enslaved in a method without the power to change it.

This is the fear I have. Without a sound foundation, instead of using an standards to assist, we will begin using it as an excuse for our actions or to misconstrue it into a style of entertainment instead of maintaining its original integrity. An example is the tail switching policy. In context, it is logical and warranted. However, in practice, I observe crowds who yell every time a judge does not see a tail switch and horses dismissed based on little else. Another example is the disobedience policy. Young horses dismissed because their eyesight can't judge depth and jumps over a beam of light on the board thinking it might a hole or root. I have seen horses slip on slick, wet boards or be dismissed for being out of gait. The horse should be awarded for not falling down!

The reason our rules are rather broadly stated is because it allows for some discretion by the judges who should be experts and extensively trained to asses the breed. Personally I'd like for our judges to have this discretion. A young horse bobbles because the equine eye cannot see as we see is forgiven and allowed to continue. The tail switching could be temper or discomfort or excitement. Judges should know the difference and be allowed to weigh it accordingly.

However, I do agree, the ambiguity of our rules is very confusing for the majority of newcomers who have had no reference except other breeds in the United States, which do not lend themselves to understanding a Spanish breed. I am very supportive of developing a manual or guide to compliment our judging rules to help train people how to assess horses. Ideally, keep the discretion yet have the standards available as reference. If we adopt standards without the proper training or comprehensive understanding, I am afraid we will risk losing what we are trying to preserve.

It is strictly my opinion and no reflection of this forum or others.

grif

Great post, Candice. I agree entirely. And, thankyou as well, Angela for joining the disussion here. I am enjoying. Very Happy

caliber

Posting for Agela Ochoa

Hola Candice y Cindy
Hello Candice and Cindy

De nuevo estoy de acuerdo con Big j, la tabla es una poderosa
herramienta, pero ustedes me hacen reflexionar que por si sola la tabla
no sirve si no esta respaldada por la educacion que permita evaluar con
soporte, cada caracteristica.

Again, I am in accordance with Big j, the chart is a powerful
tool, but you made me reflect that, the chart alone
will not serve its purpose if, not endorsed by the education that will allows to evaluate with support each and every characteristic.

Creo que debemos ampliar el concepto de cual es el ideal de cada item y que es indeseable si queremos hacer un correcto uso apoyados en ella dentro de la pista, la tribuna o el criadero.

I believe that we must extend the concept of which it is the ideal one of every item, and that is undesirable if we want to make a correct use supported inside the show ring, tribune or the breeding ground.
Cada vez que voy a juzgar una exposicion me doy cuenta de lo mucho que debo aprender y de la labor de los jueces de enseñar. Cada vez debemos ser alumnos y profesores, es parte de nuestra funcion.

Each time I am going to judge an exhibition (show),I realize the many thing that I must learn, and the work of the judges of teaching. Every time, we must be students and teachers, it is a part of our function.

La raza Paso fino esta permanentemente en evolucion por eso nunca terminamos de aprender....... afortunadamente. Un saludos desde Colombia a las dos.

The Paso Fino Breed is permanently in evolution, that's why we never stop learning ....... fortunately.
Greetings from Colombia for you and Cindy.

Angela Ochoa

caliber

FANTASTIC THREAD!

BigJ · Gracias!!!

Thanks to all for this discussion. I am grateful to have participated.

Those are my sentiments exactly! No matter the role we play, we are still students of the breed. I also agree we should endeavor to define every possible characteristic of the paso for better understanding realizing this is ever changing. Our horses challenge us daily. It is up to us to accept the challenge so the next generation of horsemen can benefit from what we learn.

Regards to you Angela from the USA,
Candice

Standard Characteristics of ELEVATIONS

Gracias!!!