national's judges

cristy · national's judges

I received this email and was wondering if anyone had any input to add about these judges. Many of them I have not heard of.

Please no slander (save that for PM's) I am really happy my region deligate is so good about getting in touch with our members!

Hi all -
Next weekend I will be asked as the delegate for the Mason Dixon region to vote for the judges for the National Show. The following is the list of judges who have put their names in to be chosen. I need to vote for 10. If you have a preference, please email me back with them and number them 1 through 10.
Thank you.

Phyllis Gaudreau
Willman Rodriquez
Carmen Cepero
Don Schanche
Guillermo Iglesias
Rogelio Moreno
Angelo Usategui
Jorge Torres (pending USEF approval)
Martin Emilio Velez G.
Rick Shaffer
Alice Page
Karen Cabic
Luis Laguna-Mimoso
Ellen Perez

If you receive this email more than one time, I apologize. I am just trying to cover all PFHA members within the Mason Dixon region.
If you are no longer a member, I also apologize.
Thanks again.
BJ Schuler

Heart of Gold

I don't know most of the judges, but I have ridden under Phyllis Gaudreau, Alice Page and Rick Shaffer and they were EXCELLENT judges. Phyllis and Alice were very good about pointing out areas for improvement or things that they would like to see. I always appreciate feedback. I would put them in my top 3.

BigJ

What's the basis for picking judges?

caliber

I think and please correct me if I am wrong on this one, you need to be a SC (senior Judge) and LIST YOURSELF..

One thing I dont understand is, APRIL and still we dont have National Judges lined?

grif

caliber

oh wow! Thanks Cindy...

BigJ

I wasn't going to correct the assumption Cindy and let it drop.

I'm kinda wondering if it really matters to anyone. Directly it has no affect on me since I'm still not showing horses, but I don't think that attitude is really healthy for the breed either.

Whether I show or not, who judges does affect this breed indirectly and therefore affects anyone who owns a paso fino.

I was wondering if we would pick judges who knew how to read and follow the judging system. Also, if we would pick judges not based on who we knew or liked but how they conducted themselves. I was wondering if anyone would bother to learn about other judges they had never seen judge or knew nothing about.

I was wondering if we were going to continue to allow international judges to skew our results. ALL PFHA judges should be judging ALL PFHA classes for ALL shows through a randomized selection process. Certainly we ALL benefit when that happens--we learn more about what other countries look for and they learn more about the American market.

I realize other systems allow for specialization like some judges only card gaited classed while others judge only conformation, etc. But really we are struggling here. I don't see how isolating our horses or judges like that helps us. Besides, we don't have a phenotype pleasure or or a phenotype confo horse or a phenotype fino horse. It's the same horse, same talents different tasks. I'd rather we didn't go down the road of other American breeds where the task begins to dictate what the horse looks like or acts or moves.

But hey, that's just me being me again. Rolling Eyes

As for everyone agreeing with everyone so the show results statistics look good....I'm not for that either. We need differences in opinion and weighting right now. It's one thing preventing our system from corruption. Yes, I see the issue about a horse being placed first by one and honorable mention by another but is that because they see a different performance or weight the characteristics differently? That is something to discuss at J&S clinics. Maybe we should think about this again. Instead of accusing judges of not knowing what they are looking at--maybe they do and don't agree with what takes greater importance.

Sometimes I'm very thankful we have so much disagreement right now in our judges because otherwise, I think we'd be in worse trouble than we are. It has protected some diversity in a wierd sort of way by the mere frustration it produces. In other words we don't place as much significance on our champions because of it and that's a GOOD thing. Our show system isn't like the rest of the paso world where horses are tested and tested and tested again before earning their titles.

So, now everyone knows what I really meant. Club

grif

Was that ME you were hitting in the head? If so, now you know what happens when you do that. Please inform everyone else that you know. Twisted Evil

cristy

I guess to answer your question directly Candice, I would like to see judges that know gait, pin gait, excuse non gait (when the rules allow)

I would also like to see judges that can tell the difference between a pleasure class and a proformance class and a fino class. Well, I know our rules are not perfect but judges that follow the rules. I too agree they should be judges from out country, that KNOW our rules.

BigJ

Heart of Gold

What can I say....AMEN Candice! A Paso Fino is a Paso Fino.

As far as my opinion on the judges, I will only speak for myself and my experiences.....

The judges I mentioned judged on GAIT, and clarity of gait for that matter. As far as everything else, I felt that they judged each class by the book (PFHA rule book).
They also seemed to place a high value on "the whole package." --- One of the judges I mentioned explained that they were judging each horse individually against the breed standard, rather than comparing/judging the horses in the arena....always keeping in mind and asking "which horse best fits the Paso Fino breed standard."

I also appreciated the feedback that the judges gave to each horse/rider. They offered clear direction on what was good and what could be improved. I always appreciate feedback.

As far as learning about new judges, I would only hope that we could be open minded enough to inquire and learn.

I personally would like to see some kind of "score card" put into place...like a dressage show. Each class demonstrates different movements and expressions and the horses/riders are judged individually on their performance. Judging criteria would include gait (clarity, rhythm and regularity), suppleness, relaxation, flexibility, impulsion, straightness, collection, etc. The horse/rider with the highest score wins.
---Just a thought

BigJ

If I had a wish, I'd wish that how judges were decided weren't based on how much they charged, how many horses they would attract, or if they got along with each other.

I'd like to know the decision was based on integrity, knowledge, and a commitment to do their best.

Oh, if they could run a marathon, because anyone out of shape might not make it to the end!

caliber

ok Candice, now you lost me! can you explain it again! PLEASE!

BigJ

Oh heck!

I mean Felix that I really don't want the majority of the discussion about picking our National judges to be all about money! Sigh! Yes I know PFHA needs to be frugal, the show a profitable success...all that...but could we for once focus on what will really SELL our breed? Good horses, good judges, make for a good show and I don't give a gorilla's batoot whether I agree with every placement or not. I haven't been to a show yet in all these years where me and a judge were 100% in agreement!!!

I want the dang horses judged, not standing in a line for 15 minutes, worked 2 minutes and then stand for another 20 minutes. (note to self--buy stop watch!). I mean I want to see our horses EARN their winnings. I want judges to judge, to walk, to look, to ask our horses to DO something.

This talk of "saving" an animal. For goodness sakes! Really! If your horse can't perform for 2 minutes straight after resting for 15, you have a problem! Either you're asking too much or the horse can't cut it...either way...that's not right! Should we have 3 year olds crowned as Grand National Champion and "save" him because he's too young without the stamina to compete with mature horses? My god in the wild my 12 year old stallion would pulverize him--NATURE! We're supposed to be testing what nature would do AND what man wants! Maybe that 3 year old should grow up, mature, gain bone, muscle, build stamina, THEN see if he can whip the big boys. I bet he would...with plenty of energy to spare...when he is ready!

Aughh! and this freakin' showboating! What in Sam's Hill is that about? The tracking test IS exciting because it's gotten close and the subtleties of the mechanics could make it or break it. Instead we see horses weaving around like bumper cars, riders trying to take itty bitty mincing steps that are sloppy and ugly and not one judge penalized them! Oh, and "the board"---sheesh! that's exciting too IF it were for the same thing--the cadence NOT if the horse is in or out of gait! I'm beginning to think judges do this NOT for the horse but for them! Everyone's watching--yeehaw, hope my slip ain't showing.

I have to stop, I'm going to hurt myself!

Hey you know what?? Maybe this 2 minute work, 15 minute rest deal is about the JUDGES too! Maybe they don't want to have to work from 9am to midnight for over a week. I don't blame them. Maybe we should be deciding who judges by "judging" them first! Get out there and give me 100!

caliber

Well! Candice, there is one thing about you....... and that is: "you say as is" and many people just dont like hearing the truth , and others IN DENIAL will never see it the same way you do, or better said! HOW THINGS ARE.

In my opinion: things will remain the same, cause too many factors involed will prevent for any chances........ if you know what I mean Wink

Thank you for explaining!!!!

BigJ

Yes, I do. Why not just say it?

When we have thousands of members but are only allowed to vote through one regional delegate then the votes are weighted in favor of the region with the most votes assigned.

Over and over again it comes down the this one factor in the decision making process.

So if 10 people vote for judges in a region that has nearly 1000 members who really decided who was going to judge? 10 people because when the delegate goes to vote he doesn't vote for 10 people he votes for 1000. In other words those 10 people didn't count as one person but as 100 people each.

If another region has 120 members and 120 people actually showed up to vote in that region and the delegate voted for all 120 people, what happens?

Well, can a delegate representing 120 people beat a vote of a delegate having 1000 votes? Nope. So those 10 people can outweigh the votes of 120 people. I exaggerate, but I've been following the voting pattern by BOD for a while and the only way a delegate with low numbers gains any weight is when the opposition votes are almost equal.

Let's quit pretending the majority of PFHA members go to a meeting. Distance, time, cost, to mention a few can be devestatng. There has to be a better way...

caliber

BigJ

Oh yeah, I forgot about KNOWING about a decision to be made by majority vote!! So, you have not gotten any notice Felix?

The idea of using only the internet to distribute information is flawed.

Take my example. My home PC is on the blitz. I spent more time with freezes, crashes and rebooting than working. So it was unreliable. Email? Forget it. I would be able to download every now and then without the thing disconnecting. Work has a firewall that won't allow any email access through the internet and my PC is monitored for all activity.

I decided to revamp my home PC system, which is what I'm doing right now this weekend, but what about those who don't? What if they don't know about a meeting or what if a meeting isn't called for a vote? What if there is a meeting and no one talks about it?

The presumption that every member has access to the technology is quite flawed. Also there is the question of time sensitive information like this example for the National Judges. Let's say everyone is connected 24/7 to the net. How many members actually log in at PFHA.org to read what is going on?

Go back to me again....Email? Even when the PC was at it's prime, I wouldn't do email unless I was expecting messages. I have a spam filter set on high and the internet provider has a time limit for all spam folders. I "may" check my email on the weekend and I have gone for weeks at a time not bothering unless someone told me they were sending me something so I could check my account and my spam folder.

PFHA may think it's saving money by going to the internet exclusively to contact members, but in the long run this decision is going to cost it allot more than it thinks.

caliber

Zero notice Candice! I have received email from the PFHA News!, from FloridaPFHA announcing the Spectrum, a trail ride........ but nothing on JUDGES!!! I wonder why? Rolling Eyes