Morgan Horses!

caliber · Morgan Horses!

I have a question, for many years, I was told the inluence of Morgan Blood on a very important old Horse.

With this said, at no given moment my intentions is to discredit a breed! other than to learn for a better understanding.

But, I will like to ask anyone if they know Morgans to be gaited? or maybe, if the OLD BREED of Morgans where gaited?

This was something the Mr. Bertram (now rest in peace) always told me! I challenged him! but, that was something Wilfredo was not good at... suddenly the dialogue was lost!

I always told him DNA can answer many questions! but he took it personally.

Is anyone heard the same? and if you have, please share your thoughts or is there any scientific evidence?

Saludos!

Ferrum

A new book published about all horses in general in Puerto Rico, racing TBs , work, and Paso Finos both of PR and col lines claims that the father of Dulce Sueño ( Caramelo) was 1/4 Morgan . The grandchild of a Morgan horse called Faroan who was imported between 1904 and 1906 and bred to top gaited local mare called Delicias.

However, this is just one version ( of 3 or more) of Dulce Sueño's pedigree.
We are waiting also for what Lang's book will claim when it comes out.

Some Morgans gait because of being crossed with Saddle-breds and pacers according to the foundation Morgan website. The General Morgan Registry accepted crosses or non-Morgan bloodlines and for this reason a foundation Morgan registry has been born to preserve morgans with lesser influence from other breeds. Gaited Morgans are frowned upon in this registry because they are not considered good for pulling wagons they are also not sought after in breeding programs for gaited horses, because they often produce un-gaited progeny. They look for strong thick hocks and versatility, plus the more Spanish or Barb look of the Proto Thoroughbreds.

So Far Denisse Cancel and I are working on finding any records to support or to discard this version.

A DNA study of the Y chromosome on the Puerto Rican Male horses to be compared with that of Male foundation Morgan Horses from Morgan descent may yield some results. only because most male PPRs descend from DS. However other alternate PPR lines exist in USA and maybe even here in PR from NON SD sire line.

The agricultural registry for PPRs is very strict and only one of their officers can collect hair DNA to avoid any cheating. unfortunately though, this also means money and waiting, so not all PPRs have up to date papers.

The author of the book is a famous writter and not a Horse person really, but the book is backed by the money of the Puerto Rican School of Ecuestrian art who is using Colombian Pasos ( Trot Gallop, Trocha and Finos) to make a sort of Equine Spectacle, and who holds the copyright to the book.

As evidence of Morgan Influence they have a picture of one of the owner's horses at a funeral of a relative ( a tall horse Claimed to be a Morgan or foreign pulling a funeral wagon.) Still they make mistakes even as far as saying that Dulce Sueño was exactly like Delicias bay with two socks, when we ALL know he had 4, and when they themselves published his picture with 4 socks.

It will be very difficult to pinpoint the truth. DS was born in 1927 according to Cautiño Family members who were asked by the PPR federacion officers who told me they can't remember the month or day.

This date is before the registry so we are unsure of lineages of all horses before these times.

However, what we are seeing is that the gaited nature of PPR horses as expressed in Quijano's Book Paso Fino: Raza que distinge a un Pueblo. is that the Paso Fino gait came about in large part as a result of the desires of a people. This may be a large reason why we had Paso Finos before even having a registry.

caliber

Thank you Jo-Ann, I didn't know so much was already on the works!

Besides Faraon there was another horse, they where 2 in total imported to improve the bloodlines!! according to Bertram!

Do you happened to know something about that?

You are right! many times information gets influenced!

I appreciate your hard work on this! and please keep us posted! what ever I can help you with, count on me!

Saludos!

Ferrum

Yes You are right another stallion was imported along with Faroan. ( in that shipment. ) also another believed to be a hackney, Don Florencio Santiago.. He also Had Many other horses and the book says he had 150 or so mares.

caliber

wow! you mentioning Don Florencio Santiago! wow!!!!!!!
He sure knew the breed!!! he was a mayor right, of what city?

Ferrum

The one from Coamo is the one I belive is being reffered to in this book. There is more thatn ...lol

BigJ

Ferrum, what is the name of the book and can I get one?

As far as the DNA testing goes, I'm surprised only one person is allowed to collect the hairs and send them in since its use is only for parent verification and does not prove ancestry. This is why anyone in the USA can pull hairs for registration purposes. If the parentage is wrong on paper the DNA will expose it.

So, is there any study now using the male chromosome to trace the lineage? If DS were from Morgan descendants he would be 1/8 Morgan, and his burial site is known.

I thought David Lang released his book last month?

Ferrum

I said one of the agricutural officers, not one person.
I am not sure why, but that is the rule, and It has to do with the DNA being on file with them specifically. Some may have DNA on file through other organazations or labs. Once each parent has the DNA on file specifically with them I Think that then the owner is allowed to send in progeny Hair.

I am still waiting for David's book, I understand the size of some images was being changed. But I get a new story every time, I do remember being told it was all finished by David Lang himself, and that he was traveling to go and pick it up. Of course once I get one I will yell in joy and let all know.

The other book, is The horse in the cultural process of puerto rico. the cost is $100.00. The cover is color and the inside jacket, but no color pics inside. It is hard cover. It does talk about racing TDs and all other Horse sports in Puerto Rico.

I think you can buy it online at the escuela de arte ecuestre puertorriqueña's website. There is no pedigree work on the PPRs except to say that DS sire line goes back to a Morgan, and no reference to the pedigree or original name or parents of that morgan. So the only pedigree they give in an incomplete DS pedigree saying the sire line to goes to the morgan. ( upsetting to me who is looking for extended pedigrees that can be verified)

Ferrum

There is no study of the Y chromozone yet, I am saying that since the service is available to people. It might be the next thing done with horses.
I know that AKC claims to have enough DNA of enough breeds on file they are now offering to determine the major contributing breed in a Mongrel's genetic makeup. If taken into horses similar studies can be done.

BigJ

Ferrum

Yes Candice, I just really don't wish to be misquoted, and that is all. I was speaking to Romualdo and Pepe Llenin at a party and that is when I leaned that an Agricultural officer has to go and pluck hairs and for this reason, PPR owners are upset at the time it takes. We also don't know why the rule is that way but the rule is that way and we did not make it that way, but did ask ourselves why it is this way if that interferes with agility and the ability to get all horses DNAed before some die.

Like you, we can't see any way to cheat the system without getting found out in the end. I don't understand why a handfull or anyone special has to witness the hair pulling either.

The "Purity" issue I have studied and I understand why it is important. The Morgan breed is an example of this with the new foundation setup.

It is said that the Federation would allow foreign blood as long as you bred to improve the PPR Paso breed, in this setup you can refresh your blood and then go back to PPR lines to " Refresh" them, but the line will retain a foreign registry number until you get about 80 something % PPR genetics in descendant progeny . The problem is that by pure numbers if you allow indiscriminate open breeding then the breed can suffer a sudden and Total change in type and even movement. If the complimentary and introduced breed dominates the bloodlines the breed will then look like the " Other" breed and no longer be a " different" breed.

The Morgan Foundation breeders are saying that the non foundation Morgans have turned into basically a version of Saddlebreds for this reason. So, they are taking steps to not accept the crosses in order to preserve the older Morgan type and movement that has been lost.

Where I see a problem is in the breeding to fads or such , yes just like you and I loved your article on that by the way. I have seen an owner of a PPR mare say breed her to the gray horse just because he is gray, how that horse moves if he is of another breed, even the conformation etc, none of that matters to that person, they just want a gray baby. ( by the way they got their wish)

On the issue of pedigrees I just wish to be able to trace things and in the new book they make that rather " hard". Yes I am looking into info, especially if I can get pictures, because the Morgan registry is older than ours and we can then maybe get actual pics or artwork of horses or registration numbers or anything like your slogan says " Priceless Facts".
What I need to find out is who the horses where purchased from in the USA. That may give me bloodline info.

Quijano's Book has some good Pedigree info on Batalla's Mother, and the Manchado's and Manchao's because more than one famous horse had this name.

BigJ

I can sympathize on many sides to this issue. It seems no one way gives the best approach.

I'm thinking of that pretty little filly that's for sale on pasofinoforum that can't be registered because of DNA problems (selling as a "paseo") and the tendency to wait taking the risk a parent may die. Sometimes it's not a bad thing to be everything a paso fino should be except not to be sure of one's parents....as history in ALL paso fino countries can attest to.

I'm just afraid that DNA is being used as a defense mechanism for the wrong reasons. This is why some of us here began the project of learning where did these horses come from and how did they develop in their respective countries.

I agree completely about the need for accurate information and history, but not to prove or disprove the purity issue nor the gait issue nor the bloodline issue. More to understand the culture of the horse NOT the country or the people. We are assuming total dependence of the formation of the paso fino with the variables of breeders and place at the time. I'm not sure breeders and country were entirely independent of the horse and what as available at that time.

Pasos represent time, history, culture; the pedigree is partially for historic reference. In no way does it prove purity, quality, or culture. The horse must demonstrate this, each and every one either through performance or through propagation.

Horsemen judge horseflesh not DNA, not pedigree, not registration papers. Some of the best horseflesh doesn't come from the best past and horsemen know this, know how to treat it, know how to judge it and know how to select or cull the offspring by it.

Ferrum

Like you, I am not interested in DNA except for learning purposes to see where traits came from, and because later it really allows you make wiser breeding decisions. Thanks to pedigrees some desireable and undesirable caracteristics have been pinpointed in all breeds in all animals from fish to Horses.

Unfortunately it was needed and thanks to DNA for example, they found out that Replica de Majestuoso was a son of Batallita del Coco and not Majestuoso de batallita as was thought. Sadly now both Replica and Majestuoso are dead, but you see my point.

I try to skip the political stuff, actually alot of the stuff in books right now and get to sources, because that happens to be what I wish to concentrate on at the present.

Many forums have been born and Many have died since we last spoke, but I remember one issue being that " Nevada" had no other gray offsping but " Boricua" by Batalla. Thanks to Denisse Cancel and her lending me " The old registry" with coat Colors and with reg. Numbers of the parents, this is now known to be not true. Bondadoso is a full sibling who was also gray or Rucio. and their was more than one mare named " Nevada" in fact there are Registered Nevadas and Unregistered Nevadas and one must diferenciate. Also the Horse listed on Romualdo's photo CD as Batalla JR ( Chestnut) is not indeed Batalla Jr. it is Batallita Jr. a son of Batallita and not a son of Batalla and Nevada.

If anyone wants some help in that area for their horse's pedigree, well that is what I am working on, so you can e-mail me and I will take a peek at what the " Old" registry says. ferrumpr@aol.com

Best Wishes,
Jo-Ann

Rafael Arbelo

About the DNA testing ... I said before and I'll say it again; anybody that needs DNA testing should use the Federation. Why? They have an account with UC Davis and Yolanda, the President's wife, will collect the samples in a VERY timely manner and send them to UC Davis. The results will be READY within 15 days, usually faster. Once you have the results send a copy to the Agricultural Dept., office of Paso Fino and they will issue the certificate. That's how I did it and it worked perfect !! (It took some time for the Dept to issue the certificates, but that's another matter completely)...

caliber

Rafael, Welcome to Pasovoice!

Can you please post the Federation Information (address and Telephone numbers)

Thanks!

Rafael Arbelo

The Federation Address is:
P.O. Box 236, Bajadero, P.R., 00616

Here is their website where you can see the people to contact.

www.federacionpasofinopr.net

caliber

Thank you Rafael very useful information to have!

Saludos!

BigJ

Yes, we do seem to live beyond our forums do we not?? Razz

There is life after forum, forum...

About the term, "rucio" that is not so clear cut as Rafael, myself and through Rafa with Tito Toro and others have discussed. I too have the old registration books.

Rucio meant anything with white hairs here's a list of colors that Rafael has meticulously researched that was described by this term:
Rabicana
Roan
Gray
and even some loud sabinos.

We had been discussing Reliquia de Relicario because he is palomino and I am suspecting possibly roan. His sire, a photo sent to me by Rafael, is definitely a roan palomino--this one I have absolutely no doubt about. Reliquia's owner has sent in some DNA for color tests, so we at least should know more about his sabino and cream inheritance.

The question about Boricua possibly being gray has practically been proven a falsehood. According to Tito Toro, Boricua never went white as he aged and all grey horses will eventually whiten out as they age, some faster than others but they all do this. Boricua did not. However, this does not prove Nevada did not carry the gray gene. The problem Rafael found when researching Nevada was the term "rucio" appearing when we knew the horses were not gray at all. Then the question was what color were they?

Recall that we have several problems with registration stud books:
They are not accurate with ancestry
They are not accurate with color
They are not accurate with naming convention
They are not accurate with registration reference

Reliquia goes to Relicario II to El Relicario to Bondadoso. The dam side also carries El Relicario and Nevada but Estrella de Arko is not roan or gray or rabicana. The dam line of Relicario II has no gray or roan either. Estrella is chestnut, sabino if I recall. Relicario II was a cream and roan so the deduction is El Relicario was cream and roan. Reliquia's owners have kept meticulous details of their horses and the bonus is they are alive to verify them. Estrella de Arko is still alive last I heard, so that's an easy verification.

Let me emphasize this again. Each supposition must be ground truthed and verified either through direct observation and testing or through those who are credible eye witnesses. We can only develop reasonable hypothesis but can't prove it through any registration records I am aware of. We can eliminate theory and use the logic that the one remaining must be true but even then we have to use a disclaimer.

I have asked for Tito Toro to look at some color plates of horses to determine if Boricua was roan or rabicana but haven't heard back. I've also asked if he has seen Reliquia and if that color pattern is similar to Boricua's.

What is interesting is Reliquia's coat color is not unlike Nevada's old photo. At first I thought he might have the grey gene but after Rafael sent me photos of his parents, that has been eliminated.

As a side note: I did see a gray PPR mare with similar breeding. She had Piel de Seda, Palomo JQ, and El Relicario on her bloodlines. The owner was taking her to sire of similar breeding to keep this line going. That was back in early 2006 so if it was successful, the mare's offspring should be a long yearling. This is another source to follow up on.

Kerry W

So what color do you think Boricua was? I think, Candice, that you told me one time, but it was several years ago, and I think new info has surfaced since then.

BigJ

The short answer is I thought Boricua was roan, then gray, then rabicana and back to roan again, possibly a smokey black.

For a long time I assumed Boricua was a roan horse, using the one photograph everyone has seen. The problem was his dam Nevada and people describing Boricua as "rucio" which translates to gray coloration in English.

Boricua has been used to register roan horses in PFHA with dubious parentage. That was a typical method one which my family also used. There was enough understanding of color inheritance to get away with it and one reason (I'm told) why the current Federation PPR stud book does not list color for fear of falsification. Of course if DNA testing were really strictly adhered to, rather than falsification it would be verification.

Then there was the debate about Nevada as a gray horse since her photo is faded and she appears as almost white.

Another issue is Borciua may have been not only roan but a smokey black roan, carrying the cream gene. No doubt Nevada was a palomino and probably the source of the roaning but whether she was also gray is a mystery.

I got obsessed about this last year and nagged everyone I could to get the answer. The issue is once again about language and the terms of description from one language to another. For months I was told Boricua was rucio. Well, that meant the photo of him wasn't roan but of a gray horse still in his youth with black points. However when pressed I was told he would be described as "cinnamon". "Roan" is not a word typically used/translated in Spanish relating to paso finos in Puerto Rico. Even in Mejia's book it's not a term easily rendered for Colombian horses.

Ok, "cinnamon" is also used to describe Dulce Sueno's dam, Mosqueada, which I understand literally means like "nutmeg" or "cinnamon". I've also been told Mosqueada might have been roan or is said to be roan.

Tito Toro was the rider and trainer of Boricua. He said the horse's legs, head, mane and tail never went white but his body was rucio or mosqueada. Well, that led me down a path of possibly rabicana and/or smokey black instead of roan.

To settle it, I sent color patterns of roan, rabicana, and sabino markings for Tito to look at. Rafael also scoured all the offspring of Boricua, by hand, in the registration books. Several were described as rucio or canaria, but we concluded rucio did not literally mean gray but white hairs. The reason we deducted this is Rafael then looked at those offspring's production and none have come up gray. Not impossible, but highly improbable to find no gray horses.

The problem was with the gray mare I saw after tracing her lines. I got pretty excited when I saw her and copied her pedigree down on some scrap paper I had at the time. (yes everyone laughs me for carrying a pen and notebook, ha, ha the joke is on ya'll). One day I'll dig up that scrap and try to retrace her gray inheritance.

Then Reliquia showed up. Not only does his owners keep meticulous notes of every horse they have owned and bred but they had photos of his sire and his dam. His sire is without a doubt a palomino roan and his dam is solid colored sabino. I knew about his sire dam line well. Quineta was the dam of Blanquita de Goren, dam of Tejano de Kofresi.

Interesting too, because a bay roan mare showed up in all of these interchanges. At first, Rafael described her as "pink" with light colored red coat. When he sent the photo of her, she was no doubt a bay roan. And yes, she did look pinkish because of all the white hairs. I'm still trying to find out who her dam is but her sire is Contraversia de Labriego if I remember correctly and he is bay sabino.

Reliquia is a horse I'm hotly pursuing and I'd like to hear Tito Toro's thoughts on him. So far, he has caused quite a stir because everyone says he is true to the Batalla line.

I've been interested in the coat colors for a long time based on some silly notion I have about tracing certain lineages and characteristics to those lines, which may be linked to certain color patterns. Roan, gray, dun, and cream are great colors to use to develop breeding patterns, time lines, and geographical references. Lately I've added phenotype to the list.

Kerry W

Thank you, Candice! I cannot tell from that photo. At times I think bay roan, but the lightness of color in his face throws me, because I've not seen bay roan with so much light hair on the face (that is not a blaze). There is a sooty buckskin pinto, that is listed as his granddaughter, that has a similar lightness to her face...but photos can be deceiving.

He is listed in my mare's pedigree, but she has no roan...so I've always wondered. I appreciate the info, and please keep us posted.

Rafael Arbelo · Reliquia de Relicario's parents

This is Reliquia's dam ... her name is Estrella de Arko (Arko x Blanca Estrella) ...

And the above horse is Arko (El Relicario x Azucena)

And this is the dam of Estrella de Arko and the grand-dam of Reliquia de Relicario ... Her name is Blanca Estrella

To have the perspective of the colors here is Reliquia de Relicario (Relicario II x Estrella de Arko)

To finish here is a picture of Relicario II (Relicario x Piel de Seda)

Ferrum

We are all anxiously awaiting the resuls for Reliquia de Relicario's color tests.
He is DNAed and now also tied by DNA to his dam.

I have seen him in person and my bet is he will come back as a Fleabitten Gray over chestnut base. Guess two is Roan over Chestnut. But with strange things like gray areas on his skin, maybe they are a type of "Bloodspots" only in gray.

Boricua had MANY full brothers and Batalla Jr should be similar in color.
he is listed as cenizo (ash) with black socks. His Dam Nevada, did not have a number, and there was more than one Nevada, so that can be an issue.
I have placed them all in anew database and Nevada sn ( sin Numero has 9 childs)
Offspring of: Nevada sn (F - )
|
| < Batalla prfed32 (M - Bay - prfed32 - 4-8-1935) >
|------Boricua prfed34 (M - Ash with black stockings - prfed34 - 24-8-1941)
|------Sabrosa prfed90 (F - buckskin - prfed90 - 22-2-1943)
|------Cremita prfed121 (F - Palomino - prfed121 - 7-1-1944)
| | < El Huerfano sn (M - ) >
| '------Maria Luisa prfed286 (F - white, cremello maybe - prfed286 - 1-1-1952)
|------Espuma prfed124 (M - Palomino - prfed124 - 17-4-1945)
| | < Estrella sn ( Mare) (F - ) >
| '------Denia prfed388 (F - Perla - prfed388 - 17-7-1951)
| | < Batalla prfed32 (M - Bay - prfed32 - 4-8-1935) >
| '------Doña Feliz prfed394 (F - Buckskin - prfed394 - 6-12-1955)
|------Pantalla prfed150 (F - buckskin - prfed150 - 22-5-1947)
| | < Marinero prfed155 (M - palomino - prfed155 - 1-1-1947) >
| |------Marino prfed176 (M - gray - prfed176 - 4-7-1955)
| |------Marinero prfed181 (M - Sabino - prfed181 - 1-12-1952)
| | < Batalla Jr prfed186 (M - Rucio - prfed186 - 15-8-1954) >
| |------Rosillo prfed185 (M - rucio - prfed185 - 15-7-1955)
| | < Porta Coeli prfed37 (M - Chestnut - prfed37 - 1-5-1943) >
| '------Pepe prfed466 (M - Roano - prfed466 - 1-4-1962)
|------Batalla Jr prfed186 (M - Rucio - prfed186 - 15-8-1954)
| | < Pantalla prfed150 (F - buckskin - prfed150 - 22-5-1947) >
| |------Rosillo prfed185 (M - rucio - prfed185 - 15-7-1955)
| | < Antonia prfed189 (F - chestnut - prfed189 - 5-1-1955) >
| |------Emperador prfed223 (M - chestnut - prfed223 - 1-6-1957)
| | < Ana sn (F - ) >
| |------Mascota prfed249 (F - rucio - prfed249 - 1-8-1957)
| | < Quiteria sn (F - ) >
| |------Martita prfed250 (F - Rucio - prfed250 - 15-12-1957)
| | < Rucia sn (F - ) >
| |------Berta prfed252 (F - rucio - prfed252 - 22-11-1957)
| | < Betina sn (F - ) >
| |------San Rafael prfed256 (M - rucio - prfed256)
| | < Sonrisas prfed187 (F - bay - prfed187 - 15-3-1956) >
| |------Amorosa prfed418 (F - bay - prfed418 - 7-1-1961)
| | < La Negra sn (F - ) >
| '------La Conga prfed419 (F - bay - prfed419 - 21-2-1961)
|------Maya prfed288 (F - Gray feabitten - prfed288 - 1-9-1957)
|------Bondadoso prfed315 (M - - prfed315 - 19-4-1951)
| < Fantasía prfed109 (M - bay - prfed109 - 1-1-1935) >
'------Fantasia Jr prfed156 (M - cane - prfed156 - 1-1-1948)
Bwahahaha I just love modern ped databases!

Ferrum

Maja was written in as Rucia con pintas negras, but Think that describes the color of Fleabitten gray, it would translate roaning with black spots
Bondadoso's color was not given

I have done or inputed the first 600 registrations from the federation, and they have different ways to describe a color, (unfortunately) like castaño, brown con cabos negros, Dorado, Rucio Moro, Perla, Blanco, albino, etc, etc.

I would also Like to note that the flea bitten grays stay darker longer.
Was Boricua's pic taken as a colt?

Ferrum

A very exciting video of stallions at Dulce Sueño 2008 with Reliquia de Relicario in IT! Posted by Denisse Cancel! on pasofinoforum
Enjoy,

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5564183840118166349&hl=en

caliber

WOW! Thank you Jo-Ann for posting! that is a FANTASTIC clip!! very refreshing!!!!! Great horses and great ambassadors of the breed.

Thanks Denise! great source of promoting the breed!

Saludos!

caliber

Thanks for sharing Rafael! great Pictures!

Saludos!

BigJ

The DNA testing is not available for roans or grays. My first bet years ago was a cremello, but the eye color was wrong. My bet is a chestnut, cream, roan.

Recall Tito Toro was the trainer and rider of Boricua and knew the horse in his old age. He has insisted the horse never turned white, which all grays do.

No, flea bit grays do not stay darker longer. The inheritance mechanism for why some horses gray faster than others is not understood. I have 6 gray horses, which I have bred and hand raised. All will be flea bit but some were gray at a young age, some still look like a solid colored horse at 3 years.

The way to tell a roan from a gray is by the coat color pattern.

The roaning will show up immediately after the foal sheds its foal coat, while grays may or may not. Roans will not have white hairs on the face or leg while grays will eventually lighten the head, legs, mane and tail. Grays can be distinguished at an early age by looking for white hairs on the nose bridge, eyes, and ears. They will always start with a few hairs and as they age more white hairs will show up. The process may be slow but it is progressive. More and more white hairs will show up. With roans the white/color combination changes with temperature and light. A summer coat usually has more white hair and the color hairs barely seen. In the winter the darker hairs will be seen with less white. Stalling a roan encourages the summer coat with more white hairs. For roans the body coat is always a blend of white and color hairs. For grays, the body coat gets progressively lighter and almost white.

Unless Relicario II was gray, Reliquia cannot be a gray horse.

I have a filly that is a gray roan and the way I could tell was she shed into her roan pattern as a foal. Her legs and head were dark with a lighter body color' she had a nice star on her forehead. Now her legs and head are turning white as well and I can no longer see her white star on her forehead. Although it's possible at Reliquia's age to be gray and still see his blaze, it's very uncommon but not uncommon for a roan. The filly's dam is roan and her star is as clear as it was the day she was born.

Registration books are great for general studies but none provide the rigorous validation needed. We cannot presume Batalla, Jr. and Boricua had the same coat color pattern because we do not know Nevada's coat color pattern. Nor do full brother and sister inherit the same combination of genes.

Recall we are discussing at least these genes:
Black/red
Bay/non-bay
Roan/non-roan
Gray/non-gray
Cream/double cream

The combinations are endless.

Ferrum

well, from my experience, some grays stay darker longer. Plus I clearly remember this one particular old gray jumper horse, who despite his age had a near black mane, points and who was flea bitten.

The flea-bitten gene is recessive, and only shows on gray horses from an Andalusian site I recently visited. Maybe in Roans but I don't know that.
It is also I believe on Chromosome #25 or 21 ( need quote) a google search will show you the source. ( scientific, they are charging to download it) it was based on grays in thoroughbreds.

I can remember visiting a Lippizan Farm some years ago, and seeing a whole herd of older gray (White) mares, and there in the middle of them, a dark one, ( Still so dark and gray) and on closer inspection, A flea Bitten Gray!

The Darker characteristics of the Flea-bitten horse I have already documented in my own pictures, of many many thousands of horses, in my personal database, that does not mean to say that Light almost white flea-bitten grays don't exist, they do also.

I don't really know why you stress that pedigree's are not important?
they detected the killer gene that Poco Bueno, gave, hemofilia in GSD dogs, etc, etc etc.

Best Wishes,
Jo-Ann

Since both parents of Reliquia have roaning, he might be a double roan... I am looking for info on double roan horses.

Morgan Horses!

Reliquia de Relicario's parents